I think she might be dead...

[gmeddy]

Hi again, it's been a long time since I've posted...
Long story short, I came back from being away for over a year, my Tercel is still running, but a bit rough.

Cutting out and spluttering when i try to take off in a new gear, unless i keep it revving up over 2000rpm, then it runs fine.
This resulted in squealing the tyres off the mark a lot.

It has also been backfiring and running on a lot after turning off the motor, which I usually would stop by letting out the clutch with it in first gear.
If I didn't do that, it would run on and on and on until doing a big backwards fart out of the Weber.

Yesterday I decided to check all the Jets were clear in the Weber, did so and yes they are all clear.
Pulled off the Dizzy to see if the vacuum advance breaker plate is moving still, n i'm pretty sure it wasn't, so I cleaned it all up again and put the dizzy back in... not taking note beforehand what position it was in, and just hoping i got it right.
I hadn't, but after moving it one notch the car started.

I took it for a drive and it seemed to be running better at low revs, no more cutting out at take off, but overall it was running with... i would guess about 30% less power than normal. a very strange feeling, and running a little lumpy, but not like one of the leads was disconnected, just a bit lumpier sounding revs, and at idle, a little putter putter type.

So I start thinking maybe I put the dizzy in a little out of line and I should pull it out and try again.

I do that and it wont start anymore...

I do some reading on here and find a thread that explains how to find the right timing with the TDC timing mark on the flywheel and so I go and do that.
But still no starting at all.

It actually makes some weird squeeky (squeeky like air slipping past a valve) pop-like noise when its trying to start. Not a bang-like pop, that I get once every now and then when starting it up again after it's tried to run on and i've let the clutch out in first to shut it up. This noise is different.

I'm wondering if the valves are stuffed completely now, after all the backfires and running on and being run with bad timing... if the valves are stuffed, and it's not getting any compression, could that lead to a complete sudden failure like this?

I just cant think of anything else... why wont she start anymore?

[TURTCEL]

Sounds like the timing is still off and possibly vacuum leaks. You are running a Weber so very easy to work with there. How is your clutch?

You could have a combination of issues.
'
Also, if the car wass sillting for a year then you probably have bad gas...drain and fill with the highest octane fuel (preferably non-ethanol). See if that helps.

I would look more into the timing and the dizzy. There are many write ups on dizzy fixes and rebuilds...be aware that the FSM has some backwards pics so take pics while you do the cleaning and regrease. Check you timing with a timing light too. It should be set to 10 degrees BTDC not the factory 5 degrees BTDC...it will run much better with timing advance. Check proper dizzy insatll first though.

https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8731

Pull the plugs and check their condition too. Cap and rotor could be in poor shape and are making for bad spark.

Start chipping away at it, doesn't sound dead to me.

Peace

[dlb]

definitely not dead. your valves are probably fine, or no worse than they were before. i agree with turtcel that it sounds like either incorrect timing and possibly vac leaks. and siphon the old gas out and put fresh stuff in, for sure.

it sounds to me like classic tercel dizzy maintenance is required: the grease in the advance mechanism is gummed up, causing the timing to stick and not allowing it to advance and retard properly. this causes backfiring, lack of power, and dieseling, all of which you experienced. you should you're "pretty sure" the vac advance mechanism wasn't moving but you need to be positive. so leave the dizzy in the car for now and take its cap off. try to twist the rotor counter clockwise. there should be a small amount of spring-loaded play. if there isn't, or if you have to force it to move in either direction and it sticks there, you need to pull the dizzy again, completely disassemble it, clean all the old grease out, re-grease it, and reassemble it. then you need to put it back in correctly and set the timing to 5-10* BTDC with the vac advance hoses disconnected and plugged—either is fine but 10* is better. after setting the timing, suck on each hose going to the vac advance cans. each one should make a slight 'pop' and then hold vacuum. if you can suck air through one, the diaphragm for that port is broken and must be disconnected and plugged. one can be broken while the other is fine so check both. reconnect the vac advance hoses to the ports that hold vacuum and then set your idle.

tearing down the dizzy doesn't take too long, maybe a few hours at the most. just follow the directions in the FSM and work in a clean area where you can't lose the tiny screws. i think turtcel took pics when he did it last, maybe he can post them for you.

after you get it running, spray carb cleaner around the base of the carb and where the intake/exhaust manifolds meet the head. sometimes those nuts and bolts can be loose and cause vac leaks, however i think they would be relatively minor and secondary to the incorrect ignition timing.

let us know how it goes.

[TURTCEL]

I will try and post those pics today for the dizzy rebuild.

I am doing a clutch on my Terc today so I am pretty busy.

Peace

[larry mcgrath]

this sounds like the timing belt has jumped a tooth (you need to put a timimg light on this and see where the timing REALY is before you rip the dizzy apart look in the FSM and check that the timing marks on the cam gear and the harmonic balancer line up properly, do this FIRST . How many miles does the timing belt have on it? the belt would explane all your problems Larry.

[TURTCEL]

Good call Larry.

As a car sits and rubber components become stiff and dry they can become problematic. During really cold winters a timing belt can also become stiff and jump time on initial start up under the perfect circumatances. Rare occurance but happens.

Peace

[dlb]

this sounds like the timing belt has jumped a tooth (you need to put a timimg light on this and see where the timing REALY is before you rip the dizzy apart.

i mentioned that he can check for a stuck advance mechanism by just removing the cap. no need to clean and re-grease the dizzy unnecessarily but it is an easy check, and a problem that i've encountered on most tercels i've worked on.

[Petros]

Welcome back. The symptoms are consistent with the timing belt jumping a few teeth. it is easy to check the valve timing, pull the upper front cover and get the lower pulley to TDC and inspect the mark on the cam sprocket is lined up with the mark on the front of the head.

Our Mazda MPV sat for several months, we went to start it and it went "glup" and than "BANG", the muffler explode. the timing belt was not even that old, it jumped few teeth right when it started and than backfired so bad it wrecked a perfectly good muffler. By the time I got the timing belt and tensioner changed the battery was bad for sitting for too long (fortunately the battery warranty covered that). But just letting sit to long did almost $1000 worth of damage because of a cold, stiff timing belt. As it was I did the work myself and it only cost me, so far, about $100.

I would consider putting in a new timing belt, they are typically less than $20, but it is a bit of a chore to get the front pulley off. After you verify the timing belt is correct, than check the distributor installation, I would be surprised if it was not also off a tooth or two. After you get that sorted out either use a timing light to set it at 10 deg BTDC, or by "ear", trial and error advancing it and driving it listening for ping, back it off when you hear it on hard acceleration.

good luck.

[gmeddy]

thanks guys,
heres some extra details,
my bro-in-law was driving it every second week for most of the time i was away, and it's warm and humid here all year round, so no getting cold, or sitting for too too long.
the fuel is also not too old, been through 2 tanks already in the two weeks i've been back driving it around, trying to get it to run a bit smoother each time i drive and tinker with it.

I took the dizzy off and cleaned the grease and oil out and sprayed the breaker/advance plate out with some crc to try get it moving freely again, but it's still quite gritty.
my vac advance canister only has one hose coming out of it, but it is most likely broken, it is squashed out of shape a bit from when i changed the clutch last year and the motor dropped back against the firewall, squishing the dizzy vac canister a little...
so checking that it holds vac would be a good idea, i didn't think of just sucking on it with my own mouth-vacuum power, i did try pulling the little lever it has coming out of it, and i couldn't get it to move by hand.

I did the timing belt maybe 3 years ago, but I can try pulling that off and checking it's still on the right tooth.

I need to get my hands on a timing light.

I followed this procedure to get the timing to what i assumed was right:

Pulled off the dizzy,
got the no.1 piston to TDC with the flywheel timing mark up top as well, re-fitted the dizzy with the rotor button pointing at no.1 spark lead point.
then i set the gap and tried to start it.
like I said, it was running fine before i messed with the dizzy this time.

i was pulling the dizzy out and moving it one cog at a time and trying to start it again and doing that over and over, about 4 times before i followed the above process to get it right... but no more start.

could something have gone badly wrong while i was trying to start it with the dizzy cog in the wrong ways? like ignition firing at a bad time with a piston in a bad position and then bang something breaks?

I will go tear off the front and see that the timing belt is in the right spot anyway, then see if i can borrow a timing light of someone today.

Thanks guys, you've given me a ray of hope.

[TURTCEL]

You would not have done anything damaging by the dizzy being off a tooth or even way off. You would notice it running like crap and stop well before you could harm anything.

Sounds like the dizzy has some booboos reguardless of the timing belt possibly being off. Which I would definitely check. When your dizzy was out did the gear spin smoothly and not have any or very little play in the shaft?

Did you pull the dizzy apart piece by piece and clean everything or did you just spray some cleaner around the inside. I would have suggested against spraying harsh cleaners in the dizzy since it can damage rubber components and it also leaves a residue that can cause possible electrical issues by collecting dirt internally. I would have just wiped everything down really well and made sure I dug out all the old grease in the rotor shaft and then repacked it with a good high temp bearing grease.

I suspect that the dizzy might have some more issues that you will need to look into. If the vacuum advance diaphram arm does't move when it is out then it is shot. That is hanging up the dizzy inside and not allowing the internal pieces to move properly...in turn possibly damaging the bearing in the dizzy shaft.

Sounds to me like the dizzy is definitely part of the problem but don't rule out that t-belt yet.

Look into these issues. Hopefully it solves itself with not much hassle.

Peace

[gmeddy]

i've just made a vid of going through it all this afternoon, check it out.

http://youtu.be/wh9RHbGbcs8

you can leave a comment on the video, or here.
thanks.

[TURTCEL]

gmeddy, I am watching your vid and paused it for a comment. That vacuum advance is shot. It is bent to hell and binding up the advance mechinism in the dizzy...needs to be replaced. It should also hold vacuum. You can suck on the hose and by putting your tongue over the hole it should stick and hold to your tongue until you pull it off.

Until that advance is replaced I would say you are shooting blindly. The dizzy ius the heart of the spark. It needs to be fixed before you continue diagnosing probs. Of course you can check the timing belt with out the dizzy.

Back to the vid...

Peace

[celtglen]

You should feel vacuum on the advance, but you CAN plug it off and the car should start, the only thing it runs is the high altitude adjustment (of the timing). Odd Dizzy, all I have seen are the Nippon-Denso big ones. The plugs being black and sooty indicate lean mixture. Clean the plugs withcarb cleaner, then set the idle speeds properly--settings sould be on the info panel under the hood. That belt looked pretty bad--old--dusty so the question is IS the timing belt tensioner REALLY working right, also there is an additional TDC marking on the lower chamber of the timing belt they MUST align.

Another thing you can do to see IF she will start. Take off the Air cleaner cover and shoot some carb cleaner down the throat then try starting it..if she nearly turns over then you need to check vacuum lines and get the carb cleaned out.

But I think, from what I heard on your video, that the plugs need cleaning, maybe the plug wires replaced as well.

You have some problems but they are not insurmountable.

Later

[TURTCEL]

Re: Ford Cortina Mk3 with a Tercel Engine 3A Vacuum Leak
by dlb » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:38 am

yes, the carb tuning affects fuel economy. if it runs rich, you will burn excess fuel. if it's too lean, you will get predetonation ("pinging" sounds) in the combustion chamber, which can eventually damage the head, valves, pistons, and/or cylinders. the easiest way to tell how it is running is to pull the spark plugs and look at them. they should be a medium brown, chocolate milk colour. if they are too dark, you're running rich. if they're too light or the electrode is melted down, you're too lean. here's a good image guide to follow for checking spark plug condition.


Actually the condition your plugs are in indicate a rich mixture, not lean. You can check the Weber wesite or call their tech services line to find out initial setting procedures for the mixture on the carb if you are not sure how to do it.

Peace

[TURTCEL]

Get that advance off your dizzy and try that. Also, replace those spark plugs...they are shot

Have you pulled a spark plug wire while cranking engine over to see if there is spark? Could have a bad ignitor or coil too. Could be weak spark issue.

Still seems like a timing issue to me. Check into the dizzy more.

Peace