We did it!!!!!

[takza]

It's purty mean to call somebody a liberal...not to mention a socialist! Them's fightin' words. Like the socialist support of our corrupt finance sector? Supported by the same taxpayer that got ripped off in the first place....and while they give themselves bonuses. As the coming misery unfolds..all the doublespeak in the world isn't going to cover up the truth.

[terceldude]

It's purty mean to call somebody a liberal...not to mention a socialist! Them's fightin' words. Like the socialist support of our corrupt finance sector? Supported by the same taxpayer that got ripped off in the first place....and while they give themselves bonuses. As the coming misery unfolds..all the doublespeak in the world isn't going to cover up the truth.

Hmm.. Interesting... But what is your point by this paragraph? Are you talking about how Obama will be??

BTW, were you joking as well when you wrote that nasty stuff about me????

[takza]

Everything I say is a joke...I thought you knew that.

On another tack...here is a decent 3-part explanation of what to expect over the next ten years....

http://seekingalpha.com/article/117618- ... art-1-of-3

[Petros]

It's purty mean to call somebody a liberal...not to mention a socialist! Them's fightin' words. Like the socialist support of our corrupt finance sector? Supported by the same taxpayer that got ripped off in the first place....

Yep, that is them, all corrupt. The wall street crowd overwhelmingly votes liberal/leftist/democrat, and why they fiance their campaigns. That was how they kept their friends in DC from stopping their gravy train they were riding at taxpayers expense. You would be hard pressed to find even one financier or major wall street figure who is a conservative.

[takza]

It's purty mean to call somebody a liberal...not to mention a socialist! Them's fightin' words. Like the socialist support of our corrupt finance sector? Supported by the same taxpayer that got ripped off in the first place....

Yep, that is them, all corrupt. The wall street crowd overwhelmingly votes liberal/leftist/democrat, and why they fiance their campaigns. That was how they kept their friends in DC from stopping their gravy train they were riding at taxpayers expense. You would be hard pressed to find even one financier or major wall street figure who is a conservative.

Interesting. I tend to think it's pretty much the opposite. It has been a lack of regs that allowed this mess...guess which party was holding the reins? I do think Obama's econ team is pretty much the SOS...same kind of people that caused the mess in the first place....time will tell if anything really changes. I think we may be on a train to hell or wherever...and I don't think it's going to end in a good way.

[jetswim]

Um I don't know if Americans on this board know this but all the money in the U.S. is printed by a private corporation, The Federal Reserve, who then lend it back to you at whatever rate they want. If there is one thing to change in the U.S. it should be this. And bring back the gold standard!!

[Petros]

Jetswim,

What your wrote is not quite accurate, and a common misconception. The value and printing of US currency is done by the US government as required by our Constitution. The printing of the paper money is of little consequence since all major and most minor transactions are done by electronic transfer anyway. The Federal Reserve is a private consortium of Federally chartered banks who set policy for member banks, including available of money for lending and lending rates. These can can have a powerful effect on the value of currency. But these banks, and the Fed, operate according to the rules set by the Congress, and that is why there is so much collusion between them.

There is another common misconception, often repeated by the media, that Takza stated was that the problem was lack of regulation on lending practices. It was just the opposite, the congress out of misguided social policy (starting under Pres Carter as the "community reinvestment act") required banks to lend to marginal qualifiers in exchange for guaranteeing the mortgages. It was deemed a way to help low income people participate in home ownership and a way for them to build assets.

Originally it was only for first time buyers, there was a relatively low max loan amount, 5% down, and for those who only own one home. Only about 9% of all mortgages were done under this program. This was expended under President Clinton by dropping most of these limitations, so eventually almost half of all mortgages were done under this program, WAY too many. So lenders were forced to qualify a lot of people that would not qualify under non-government, private lending programs.

The previous Bush administration btw, had gone to the congress no less than 17 times to warn about the problems and request a reining in of these regulations. In fact Senator John McCain had introduced a bill that would bring these federal loans under similar rules as private banks use. Senate democrats, specifically Christopher Dodd and Barny Frank threatened to filibuster the whole session if that came out of committee, so it was dropped. Like it or not, these are the facts of how this debacle was allowed to occur.

This risky lending actually worked to some extent to enrich marginal qualifiers if they could keep the loans current, and the underlying potential collapse was hidden, When real estate prices were always going up, as they have pretty much for the last 25 years. When the banks had to foreclose they could almost always auction the property off for more than their loan amounts, so the lenders and the government did not loose money on these risky loans. But when real estate values drop even a small amount, like 5%, than losses build, and mortgage insurance funds get depleted fast. Than the banks have to eat it. If a bank was lending its own money it would NEVER use such lending practices, it was BAD government policy that lead to the melt down. IF they had kept the early limitations this would not have occurred. One number I have heard was that 72% of all foreclosures were done on people that owned more than one home! Yes, it was greed on the part of the people buy more houses than they could afford, but this only occurred because government REQUIRED the lenders.

There were some complicating factors, like allowing the banks to "package" the loans as investment interments to sell on the open market (kind of like mutual funds, large groups of stocks). But basically the size of the problem was CAUSED by BAD government regulations. NOT a lack of them.

This why I believe is free markets, WITHOUT unnecessary government interference. If the lenders were lending with their own money this would not have happened. Housing prices would not have been driven up, and fewer people would own homes since it would be limited to those that could actually afford them. What a concept!

Unfortunately the current administration will be getting government MORE involved with private banks and other business (specially automotive manufacturing), this I suspect will only make matter worse (only because it has NEVER worked in the past). 90 percent of the proposed so-called economic stimulus program is just corrupt special interest spending that has nothing to do with the economy, and most of the actual "stimulus" is stupid and wasteful.

So nothing has really "changed" with the candidate of "change" now in office. And it is not likely it would have been a lot different with with the other candidate, we need to clean house, senate AND the presidency. It is a shame and a disgrace that very few in government, on all sides, have become nothing more than corrupt brokers of stolen assets.

[takza]

That's an interesting but limited(?) POV...and I could respond with a few other POVs...but it gets old after awhile. Reality is now that we're moving towards govt by and for the people instead of by and for the corps. With no guarantee that they will be able to glue the financial house of cards back together this time.

How bad is it?

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/ ... raphs.html

[jetswim]

Here's a great speech by Ron Paul about the US Monetary system.
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congr ... 021506.htm

[Petros]

Reality is now that we're moving towards govt by and for the people instead of by and for the corps.

If you think that, than you are truly delusional, or tragically holding out vain hope that things will actually change in DC. Go read some of the details of the so-called "stimulus" bill, and see if it measures up to your unfounded proclamation.

Explain how is it that giving MORE authority to the incompetent and corrupt officials that contributed to this mess going to help? There has been no fundamental "change" in DC. Just because a new president wins a popularity contest does mean anything is going to change.

I do not mean to sound so jaded, but I have been following this kind of thing much longer than most on this list have been alive, and I do not see any hard evidence that there will be any improvement. The rhetoric might be different, but actions speak louder to me than rhetoric. So far the action has been more of the same, only worse.

[Don Jorgensen]

After my initial response to the sixth reply to Southparks’ “We did it”, I was remise to comment further. But then the thread takes on a guise of authority and knowledge that is to be attributed to wisdom and age. Phooey. I said it in my first comment and here it is again. “Hind sight is 20-20 vision,” but what I didn’t say is, “You have to be able to discern cause and effect and you have to be able to be objective.” That is where the bicameral processing comes in. I’m not seeing much of that from

Petros wrote, Just because a new president wins a popularity contest does mean anything is going to change.

America certainly got change in from 2000 to 2008. A constitution trashed! The nations’ status in the world diminished to a joke even to the level of a shoe tossing to climax the abomination! Enron and the boys in Control..(look to see the ties). The Wall Street collapse, the infrastructure collapse such as levees and bridges, the collapse of the auto industry while GUESS WHO, the oil industry makes unprecedented profits! Hey Petros….that handle sorta sounds like a close relationship to fossil fuel of the liquid kind….did your crude oil buddies share any of the record profits with you? Oh, by the way, this election was determined at the polling place. Can’t say that about the 2000 election and probably couldn’t have said it about 2004 had a couple of States been put to the test. Change….We Got It.. Now WE have HOPE that the last 8 years will change…Dare I say, Any change would be good….

Petros wrote,I do not mean to sound so jaded, but I have been following this kind of thing much longer than most on this list have been alive, and I do not see any hard evidence that there will be any improvement.

Oh come on. Your wisdom and age makes you better at seeing hard evidence for improvement in the hours that have ticked away since the inauguration? My wisdom and age tells me that what took Satan and Delilah to accomplish…Since “WE” didn’t elect Jesus, Mohamed, Buda, Jesse Ventura, or Petros, “WE” can’t expect hard evidence of improvement until at least next week! As far as

Petros wrote, I do not mean to sound so jaded, but I have been following this kind of thing much longer than most on this list have been alive,

Well, Methuselah, Not to be pre-judgemental but I’m thinking back to 1963 in November when America lost a president to an assassination. He was for change and that change was enacted by the legislative push of his successor. I don’t think you go back that far…otherwise you might remember the price freezes of Mr. Nixon…you remember voting for him…I don’t think so. The slogan was “Nixon in 72…Why change Dicks in the middle of a screw”. If you were around then …you wouldn’t have known what that meant. Still sucking a thumb I would guess. Inflation ..Too Much money chasing too few Goods… Well the price freeze forced everything into short supply. During canning season…ahhh do you know what canning is? Sort of a lost thing now-a-days…Mason jars and lids ..especially the lids were not available ..lots of unhappy people…warehouses had plenty…your kind of CAPITALISM at its best. I was a Standard Oil of America Dealer in PETROL retailing then….put on allocation …90% of the previous year sales. The company owned stores got 100% + or basically what they could sell.

By the time Gerald Ford came around to save the party …the popularity contest said YES to Jimmy Carter. He promptly set in motion opportunity for American enterprise to take us to a country less dependant on foreign oil. Passive solar incentives, the era of 90% + efficiency furnaces, efficient auto fuel mileage. Yeah that was change. Too bad he wasn’t a world player like Reagan …who was very popular… shut down domestic oil…bailed out the savings and loan mongers. Got the hostages home and embraced Saddam Husain early on because Iran wasn’t playing fair anymore. That was when the American worker lost company retirement benefits because the cronies figured out that the assets of a corporation included the employee retirement funds. Them damn socialist programs anyway. Let’s get rid of them once and for all….and the American worker can just …..

Main Street USA closed down. Giants of the construction and agriculture industry closed shop completely or just moved to Mexico. Caterpillar, John Deere, International Harvester, Massy Fergusson, New Holland…just to name a few. Remember packing plants like Hormel, Rath, Nissens, “Don’t know what your missin with fun time franks from Nissens”. Those jobs just ain’t coming back little man. Under George W. the last wave goodbye where the hobbits of industry like Tecumseh, Maytag, etc. went to Brazil and on and on. Yeah great times, Bank closings, numerous foreclosures of agribusiness, implement dealers, cafes, motorcycle shops closing down. Several people I knew well lost it all and ended in suicide. Good job Mr. popularity!

Do you remember George the first? His parade passed by the intersection in front of my Convenience store…blew right through the stop sign. I stepped outside and saluted as the motorcade passed by. I don’t think they noticed. In 1986 my Tercel was just rolling off the assembly line. The 1984 Tercel that now belongs to Petros was worth about $2500 and the opinions of Petros were of no value then …probably was a preteen or maybe a teenaged dreamer and focused on the Government, the economy, philosophy, society and anyone who would listen and anyone who would buy the Saturday night beer. But then I am probably giving out waaaay too much credibility.

Now you may remember a man who would, could, and did deliver change. Mr Ross Perot helped the nation elect Bill Clinton and he brought change. Change from 12 years of a time when Main Street USA closed down. Mr. Clinton recognized the future and embraced silicon futures besides global economies. Wow …..16 years ago and a Congress opposed to just about everything the executive branch pushed for and yet this man brought not only change but prosperity to AMERICA for one and all.

Bring in Satan and Delilah.

and again Petros, The rhetoric might be different, but actions speak louder to me than rhetoric. So far the action has been more of the same, only worse.

Poof prosperity all gone.
There is no similarity of action…YOU DON’T KNOW the actions of the last 8 years because that administration and the cronies do not respond to Congressional Subpoenas, have made records untouchable, and have given the middle finger salute to the constitution.

That bicameral mind surfaces again from those that embrace the UNPOPULAR past administration.

I, for one, am among many who embrace the HOPE this administration has to offer and I accept it and choose to support it. I will not be silent when challenged.

I expect these comments to remain accessible. Otherwise the previous comments should have been omitted as well.

Oh, and I do expect some drivel from the crude oil world but that is inconsequential.

Thank you for reading my thoughts,
Don Jorgensen

[takza]

Change will happen...but slowly. Hard to turn a ship that has already hit the iceberg and taking on water...in a sea with more icebergs than usual. Do need to get the retrograde that caused a good bit of the mess out of the way and get on with trying to fix things. Conservatives don't like change...but I'd say they are simply SOL. The US has painted itself into 5 or 6 corners in a 4-sided room. The rest of the world will only finance a recovery because they have no choice.

[Mattel]

Hi all, I enjoy these discussions as much as the other person but I personally don't want to see any destructive name calling. Lets not get silly, we are here to help each other with these cars. I don't want to get in the way of the whole freedom of speech thing and seriously respect your opinions but I don't want to see anyone else blow a gasket. If anyone is upset about this thread then feel free to PM (anonymity guaranteed) me as the moderators may do something drastic with it.

[Neu]

I do not mind the political debate, infact I want it to continue.

BUT the name calling and bad mouthing HAS to stop. If it doesn't stop I'll close this thread.

[Petros]

I do not know where you got the idea I "embraced" the last administration. I was not happy with it from the beginning. Nor do I work for the oil industry, I am self employed and my income is dependant mostly on the construction trades.

Wal-Mart and Costco's profits have recently went up too, are they too secretly connected to the Bush administration?

With all due respect Don, your post reflects many of the misconceptions repeated by the media. It appears you are attributing more authority on the executive branch than is warranted. The real power is in the congress. And that has been run by a bunch of crooks for a very long time. Nancy Pelosi and Tom Dashel were NOT elected by a majority of voters of the country, yet they control the federal budget, taxes and they put the limits of power on the chief executive. The President can only act within the authority given to him by Congress. The congress has been controlled by the Democrat party for several years now, during the economic slow down.

And the Constitution has not been "trashed" by the President near as I can tell. Every one of these claims have seen judicial review, and almost every false accusation that you appear to be repeating has passed constitutional muster. The courts are the ONLY authority to interpret the Constitution, so it does not matter what you or I think of the rulings. As much as we do not like it, the fact of the matter is not only has the security measures the President has taken have determined to be legal, but President Obama has stated that he intends to keep and use those same powers to keep the nation safe. So where is the change?

All this is simple fact, and it is not likely something you have read or heard through your normal information sources.

And like you, all we can do is hope. But from what I have seen it will likely be vain hope. I suspect things will get a lot worse before they get better. But neither are we as bad as much of the media has been reporting, a 3-4 percent slow down is not a crisis (not yet anyway), only a set-back. Doing the wrong things will make it worse, and that is what I fear because I SEE NO CHANGE IN HOW THINGS ARE DONE IN CONGRESS.

So regardless of Obama's claims and intentions, without a major change in the Congress, there can be no change in the US government.