Front Wheel Bearing Question

[DanT]

I suspect that the sound I am heaing from the driver's side front wheel is due to a wheel bearing. I plan to pull the wheel this weekend to have a look... but not exactly sure what I am looking for? (I replaced a rear bearing on a VW bug about 35 years ago, but have never done one of these front bearings.)

What would you do to narrow this down to make sure this is it?

The sound is coming from the driver's side. It seems to be getting worse over time just driving the car around town. At slower speeds it sound mostly like "a dry bearing" to me. The pitch of the sound increases at medium speeds and it sounds a bit like winter tire noise at about 40 mph speeds. But I do not believe it is tire noise... with these new michelin highway treads that drove quietly to Minnesota last year. Also, the passenger side is quiet now... so I would not think that horrible alignment could account for sound on just one side... plus the car handles well. The sound is present also in neutral coasting down a hill also. Wanted to mention this as I do not know for sure if some sound might be coming from further inside the wheel axle assembly.

Checked the transaxle fluid level and it is totally fine. I do not think it is the rotor or brake pads, but will check for that when the wheel is off. (This T4 has 242 K on it and I doubt this bearing has ever been replaced, so I suspect this could be it.)

In case I am in for a wheel replacement, I already did a search and located a post titled "Front Wheel Bearing Replacement". This looks like a great post, but I am not able to view any of the images. Are the images no longer coming up with the post for others? If the images are there, then I wonder what setting I might need to tweak to see them?

Thanks for the help and advice once again. Greatly appreciated.

Dan T

PS: The rebuilt engine is running beautifully... due to the excellent help this list provided to get new main and rod bearings on the crankshaft... whith the engine still in the car!

[Petros]

to check the bearing jack the wheel up, put jack stands under it, remvoe wheel. With car in neutral turn the axle by hand and put pressure on the front wheel bearing, you should feel roughness as it turns. If not sure, remove the axle from the hub (I use a large breaker bar with a pry bar between the lug nut studs to keep it from turning), remove the brakes so you are now stripped to just the hub (steering knuckle), and put your fingers in the spline hole and turn it, again it should turn smoothly, no roughness. If smooth than it is not the wheel bearing.

You can also follow the service manual procedure for replacing the bearing. Or you can just remove the steering knucke and take the whole assmbly to a auto repair shop and pay them just to press out the old bearing and install the new one. Not that hard to do yourself. AutoZone rents tools for free for driving out these bearings, and installing the new one.

Good luck

[rer233]

if the problem is a front wheel bearing, the noise should get noisier/quieter when negoating a sweeping left/right turn. if that's the case, jack the front up, turn each wheel with your hand on the bottom of the coil spring (trans in neutarl- natch) and you should feel a roughness in the offending side. good luck- let us know how it works out!

[DanT]

I am starting to conclude that this is a front wheel bearing issue. The evidence:

Before rer233 mentioned that a front wheel bearing would get louder on the turns I had already noticed that was a definite sign of whatever it was (but not knowing what it was). In neutral coasting downhill I would swerve the car right and left... and could create the noise every time I turned right... and the sound would go away every time I turned left. I knew the noise was coming from the driver's side.

I suspected the noise was coming from the outside of the tire actually... as I would put pressure on that area turning right... and it sounded like it could be tire tread. (And I knew I had the sway bar off and wondered if the alignment got skewed somehow.) But when I swapped the two front tires it made no difference. I put a bald tire on and it helped with the noise level... which suggested that it might be alignment... but the noise still not go completely go away. (And the car handles just fine. It does not pull at all.)

Before this test drive I had jacked up the left front wheel to inspect the bearing. I could not detect any issue with play by using the 12 o'clcock and 6 o'clock push and pull method. Took the caliper off and turned the assembly. Could not detect any roughness or looseness in the turning... or any sound. It felt and sounded too good to suggest there was a bearing problem. After this I was leaning toward tire noise. I did not pull the rotor (It would be a hassle as it is rusted on, and I also need to remove two rusty bolts to do it, but I can get it off if I really need to) Nor did I remove the hub. It all felt too good to me. Replaced the pads and lubed the caliper bolts while I was in there. (Passenger side got new pads also.)

The clincher was when I came back and read rer233's post on Sunday night. I was leaning toward tire alignment at the time... as the bald tire really was quieter. But when I read that the noise for a wheel bearing matched my experience exactly for the turns... I bolted back into the gararge to have another look.

This time I just jacked up both front wheels so they were free to spin... so I could compare the quiet one with the noisy one. I went back and forth comparing the two wheels. There was a definite difference. They both turned equally well, but one bearing was silent... and the other was not. I am pretty sure that sound is coming from a dry bearing... on the driver's side. Still could not detect roughness. Put my hand on the bottom of the strut where the knuckle attaches but could not detect vibration there, (RER, what did you mean by placing your hand on the spring?) . I can only detect the sound so far. But if this sound was amplified I am pretty sure it would precisely match what I hear at 20 to 40 mph... and when turning right at medium speeds.

SO... I think it is a wheel bearing... but maybe it is in the early stages of going bad and has not broken up yet to cause the roughness? (It is likely that I will notice any sound earlyu that was not there before: I have had this car for 16 years. To keep it quiet I have two layers of carpet on the inside... 1/4 inch of roofing tar on the outside... have tracked down and eliminated every rattle... and I run only michelin highway treads... to keep in quiet.)

Another thought: It may be that the bearing dried out sitting up on blocks for about 10 months... while it was not turning... after getting salted last January... and maybe a seal went out. I do not remember that sound from when the car went up on blocks last January. Not sure of the cause...


I priced a KOYO bearing at NAPA for $55. I think that I just need an inside seal and an outside seal before I start the job, yes? And I read somewhere that a member backed the bearing with extra grease during the install also. Good or bad idea?

I have checked the manual and can see how to get the steering knuckle out. (I did the lower control arm and sway bar on that side one year ago, so I have never-seize in those bolts. ) The bolts on the strut have not been out in over 20 years of east coast diving... and will likely need MAP gas heat... after soaking in blaster. I would rather do that myself than to trust a shop with it. Might take the knuckle to a shop to press bearings in. Will look at that part to see if I can do it with rented tools.

At this point I am going to replace this bearing, but can someone give me a clue how many miles I might have around town before I do serious damage?

Thanks again for all of the help on this.

Dan T

[xirdneh]

they can last for quite a while (many months)
getting louder as it goes
i replace them when the sound becomes VERY annoying
never had one totally fail
check out rockauto.com
i have paid from 16.00 to 30.00 for the bearing at rockauto
you will need a seal set (or inner and outer seal)
check out "sdoan" 's write up on doing it yourself
i take the bearing out and have a auto machine shop install new stuff
they charge 35.00 to 45.00 around hear

[Petros]

the bearing is already damaged, so you can not harm it by dirving more on it, it is alreay shot. however, if it gets worn bad enough it could start wearing metal off the inside of the steering knuckle. but it would have to be so bad that when you jack the car up you will be able to wiggle the wheel around on the hub, it would be very noticable when you drive it, so you should know long before you get to that point because you will feel the looseness when you drive it. But you could drive it a year like that, or it could start eating up the bearing and be completely wasted in only 3 weeks (though not lkely).

take your time, just make sure you get it done when you have a opportunity to take it apart and fix it.

[DanT]

Thanks for the advice. Good to know I can make it around town and get to the parts store without fretting.

I would like to take the car on a 6 hour road trip with my son in about 2 weeks so am a bit concerned about the highway driving. Might want to get this done before then. My local NAPA store will sell me a KOYO bearing for $45 and the seals are $15.

They recommended a guy in town who presses bearings in (he does this for the shops also). I just talked with him... and for $40 I can bring him the steering knuckle with the hub still pressed in and he will turn it around from there. This sounds like a best path forward for me.

While I have this wheel apart I plan to replace the rotors on both sides. (New pads on both sides also.) Wonder if anyone has an opinion on which brands I should consider... or avoid? (I could turn the NAPA rotors that I put in there about 15 years, but do not think it is worth it?)

Azone sells their durlast for $20
NAPA sells their own brand they call "Premium Rotors" $22
NAPA also sells Ultra-8 brand (which might be OEM?) coming from Altrom Imports $22.50

RockAuto lists the following in the "daily driver" level... a notch up from economy (would need to add shipping):

Wagner BD60803 closeout $14.27
Brembo #08311010 closeout $14.62
Raybestos # 9837R "Professional Grade" $20.79

Really helpful to learn how to diagnose this problem so I can fix it. Appreciate the expertise a lot!

My best regards,

Dan

[Petros]

You might consider up-grading to 25 mm vented disks (from '92 or newer Tercel), you will need the larger calipers as well (from the same year Tercel) and the longer flex hose, and a rotor spacer that list member Synth sells, or you can make the spacer your self. go check out the brake up grade thread in repair guides. If you are replaceing brake parts you might as well put in the better quality parts, with the spacer everything just bolts right up.

I have had good luck with both the Autozone and Napa parts in general, Raybestos is the brand the Les Swab tire store chain uses and also of good quality, I am not familar with the other brands.

[DanT]

Wow! That front brake upgrade is impressive. At this point I think I will stick with the stock rotors and calipers though. Just not up for doing anything quite that ambitious. Will be very happy just to get the bearing to stop pestering me... and to know that my stock rotors and pads are all working smoothly. Cool to see how to do that conversion though.

[Petros]

If you just install the rotors and calipers, it is not more work than swapping out the stock rotors. It is not really that "ambitious", it is just remove and replace parts. Either keep your existing brakes until you do the upgrade, or put in the better parts, it is not more work and only costs a little more. It is a waste of money and time to put back in the undersized brakes, trust me, it is an easy swap.

[keith]

I will say from personal experience that Wagner rotors and thermo quiet pads work very well, Duralast pads and rotors, I'm not happy with. EBC have a lot of stopping power but don't put your tools away, they don't last very long.

[DanT]

Getting ready to replace this wheel bearing on Friday evening. The plan is for me to pull the steering knuckle in the evening and then take this to Ed at the shop to press out the old bearing and put the new one in for $40 cash. Ed apparently does this for other shops in town, and was recommended by NAPA, so I want to believe that he knows how to do that part... though I always want to monitor this as well...

I want to make sure I have eveything needed ahead of time. (The Koyo bearing and inner and outer seal kit is in at NAPA: $45 +$15) I read sdoan's post "Front Wheel Bearing Replacement", which was excellent Also found the photos in photobucket (address below). Have been through the FSM more than once.

Still a few things that might concern me:

1) Getting that rotor off is going to be difficult: It has rusted onto the hub during the last 16 years of eastern US salt driving. Suggestions welcome. My plan is to squirt blaster in the lug holes and then to bang on the rotor to create vibrations to hopefully get the blaster to soak in between the rotor and the hub. Next step will be MAP gas heat to the rotor... combined with a hammer on the back side I think. I don't like the idea of hammering on a rotor, so wonder if I should be renting some kind of puller? Again, any tricks of the trade would be great to hear about.

2) The FSM does not mention packing the new bearing with grease, yet this seems like a necessary step? I assume that Ed knows how to do this, but I is there a particular type of wheel grease required. (I have repacked many bicycle bearings, but only one car bearing a long time ago.)

3) The FSM says,"Apply liquid sealer to the dust cover and steering knuckle connection before assembly." Is there another name for "liquid sealer" (like silicon?) or is that it?

4) The FSM also says, "Using SST drive a new dust deflector into the steering knucke." I do not have a new one. Can I reuse the old one?

Thanks for the help once again. This would be really difficult to do without the advice from this list. Really appreciate any comments from those who have been there.

Best regards,

Dan


http://s305.beta.photobucket.com/user/s ... 7515747036

[sdoan]

Hi Dan,

In answer to your questions...

#1 Clean the accumulated rust and dirt off the nose of the hub that the rotor slides over - that's likely to be the biggest resistance. The rotor should have two threaded holes in it 180 degrees apart. Thread some bolts into those holes and use them as little presses to push the rotor off. If the rust and corrosion is as bad as you suspect you will probably have to use the heat and hammer method too.

#2 Looking at the pictures I apparently use the NAPA wheel bearing grease. Coat all the surfaces and push as much grease into the bearing as possible. If applicable, try pushing grease from one side to push air out the other. Sealed bearing come pre-greased, but this one was not sealed and just had a little grease on it so it needs more.

#3 I can't remember doing this. It may be between the seal retainer and the hub or brake dust deflector and hub. For some things stiff grease works as well as silicon sealer.

#4 I remember the dust deflector because it was a pain. It is a thin steel ring that presses into the same bore as the seal after the seal is installed. I think a new one came with the seal set. (The seal may have a lip on it that does the same thing.) The FSM says the deflector should be driven in like a seal with a tool that supports it all around its circumference. So I found something that fit perfectly and tried and tried and kept distorting it. It's not possible to hit it squarely with enough force to drive it in uniformly. The trick is to ignore the FSM, use a little hammer and tap it in gently working your way around it and hitting the high spots. If you don't tear it up too badly getting it out, it's probably reusable.

BTW, it makes sense to pull the hub and have some one press the bearing out and in - it's difficult to square it up without a shop press.

Good Luck,

Shawn

[DanT]

Sdoan,

Excellent! Thank you so much for your advice on this. I have seen those holes in the rotors, but never thought about using them to get the rotors off! Key information! Very, very helpful to hear your suggestions.

I just got off the phone with Ed and am good-to-go for 9:30 on Saturday. He says he has done "over a hundred of these" and is not worried about getting the job done. Talked with him about the grease for the open bearing. He suggested the newer synthetic wheel grease. Says it is far superior to the older kind. Even mentioned how the superiority of the synthetic greases becomes most apparent on bycycle bearings... and I am very familiar with that improvement. Going with the synthetic grease unless someone on the list thinks this is a bad idea?

Hopefully the project will not run into any snags. Very helpful to get the advice of those who have been there!

Best regards,

Dan T

[keith]

Most of the new wheel bearings come pre-packed with a synthetic grease. Unless yours is dry, I would just leave it alone. I did repack mine with a molylith grease but I would not do that again. I did that at the time because I did not trust the synthetic greases yet, I do now.