Transmission Clicking

[Mark Thump]

Let's see if this is something that somebody has encountered:

1986 Tercel 4wd deluxe manual... blue... 263,000 miles young. Owned since 1990 & 34,000 mi.

Transmission clicks - clacks - Especially noticeable in 1st & 2nd, but it''s also there in 3rd... can't hear it in 4th & 5th, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
clicking varies by engine speed, not wheel speed, in rate, not in volume or pitch. Only happens when in gear, not in Neutral and coasting.

My guess: Flywheel bearing has been shot for ages, resulting in nasty shaking if the clutch is not gently feathered. This may have resulted in a damaged transmission input bearing. That is at least my hope, as it sounds ike that is not too difficult to replace... it's not like the car is worth putting a lot of money into.

Your ideas?

[dlb]

sounds like a good guess to me. only way to find out for sure is to remove the trans and take a look. an easy diagnostic tool would be to drain the the trans oil and look for chunks of metal. it's normal to find fine metal shavings on the magnets of the trans drain plugs if you haven't changed the trans oil in years but if you find big hunks (relatively speaking), that could be a sign the problem is in the trans itself.

[Petros]

There is no flywheel bearing, it is bolted to the crank, and there are crank bearings. It could be a number of things: pilot bearing, throw out bearing, trans input bearing, or even missing/damaged teeth on input shaft bearing. It could be clutch too, but that seems unlikely, unless your idea of "flywheel bearing" is actually a bad clutch (sometimes the disk disintegrates and it will chatter and make bad noises). If pilot or t/o bearing, it will not likely cause any issues other than annoying noise, if it is input shaft bearing or input gear, further degradation could do more damage to the trans gear cluster.

All of these required trans to be pulled and parts replaced. After trans is out, input shaft, clutch and t/o bearing are easy to replace. If internal trans parts need to be replaced you have to pull apart to expose the main gear cluster to get to the input shaft bearings and input shaft gears. A big job, but not as big as rebuilding the whole transmission. If you can not narrow it down further than I suggest pulling the trans and inspecting the pilot, t/o bearing, clutch assembly and rotate input shaft by hand and see if you can find source of click. if in the trans you might consider find a used trans from a wrecker and replace it. A rebuild of the trans is also possible, but much more costly.

[Mark Thump]

Yes, by "flywheel bearing" I was meaning the pilot bearing, just couldn't think of the name at the time... and thought that my description couldn't mean anything else.

As the noise only happens while moving in gear, and is engine rev dependent, not speed, it seems that it should be somehow due to something on the input shaft - bearing or gear. I've been a bit short of funds, or I would have picked up the '86 with the blown engine on Camano Island the other week. Well, that and that after using the car for 220,000 miles, as good of a car as it has been, I'm not thrilled with the thought of fixing it and having it good to go for at least another 40,000 or more. I've lived with it for over 20 years, maybe it's time for something... nicer...

Mark

[marlinh]

The input shaft can be removed without removing the trans. I think there's a write up about it. There are four bolts holding the cover in place. You may have to drop the crossmember to get the bolts to clear the firewall. Then the input shaft can be pulled out and inspected.

[Mark Thump]

I decided to see how long I could ignore it, and today I found out!

I use the car to get to the post office for work, about 3 miles. Today on the way back, leaving a stoplight it changed from the ticking to a godawful nasty grinding noise. But it got me the half mile back to the shop. Now the question becomes one of repair, replace, or sell.

Any decent '86ish manual transmissions laying around within 150 miles of Seattle? (I'm actually in Monroe WA)

Or should I put it on CL for... $600?

[irowiki]

http://spokane.craigslist.org/cto/3876702920.html

This might help!

[dlb]

i think either replacing the trans or selling the car for someone else to repair are both fair ideas. just as long as the car doesn't get scrapped. i hate seeing vehicles get crushed when they simply need a new component. it takes so much more energy to crush and recycle old vehicles (and far more so to make new ones) that i feel guilty about it when they could be repaired for far less.

if you decide to replace the trans, make sure to confirm the front and rear diffs match. '83-'84 were 3.73 and '85-'87 were 4.1, but don't assume that your car is stock either since you weren't the original owner. lots of peeps on the forum have replaced a diff with the stock gear ratio only to find that a previous owner had swapped to the other ratio, which means finding another diff and doing the job again. i believe the way to tell which diff is which is to count the teeth on them, but someone else here will have to confirm that.

[Mark Thump]

There is certainly something to the idea of rebuilding, not replacing.

However,
the paint is bad, the motor mounts need replacing, there is rust in the left rear panel, the carpets are shot, as are the seat covers, it leaks water into the interior a bit, rattles have accumulated, various front end bushings need replacing, Engine - last time I changed the timng belt, I also changed the front camshaft seal. The old one crumbled in my hand. that leaves me wondering about the rest of the engine, which does use oil at about a quart every 5-700 miles. When is the calatalytic converter and the whole exhaust system going to fall apart? I'm sure I've forgotten things. Carb rebuild? I have the kit for it somewhere...
I've had the car for 23 years. I think if I don't stumble across a later type transmission - so not the one in Spokane - I'd rather put my efforts into the MGB sitting in my garage.

So if someone wants to make me an offer for it...

[Petros]

If that is the condition than $600 with a bad trans is a bit high. There are several 4wd Tercels in both the Lynnwood and Arlington Picknpull, but i have not seen if the trans is even present (I just know about them from their inventory list). You would have to pull the trans yourself, but it is a good deal and worth saving the car. The clicking may have been the input gear that lost a tooth, now it complete crunched it up. It can be fixed if the broken gear parts did not makes its way into the main gear cluster, I even have some spare parts from a junk trans that can be used to fix yours.


Although you have a list of other issues, none by themselves are that big of a deal, it is just that you apparently let it go without keep up with normal maintenance. When I took auto shop in High School in 1974 (when almost all cars had carbs), it was considered normal maintenance to rebuild the carburetor every two years. Wear on the suspension parts is also normal, as is replacing seals and mufflers (you can get by without a catalytic converter since the car is older than 25 years). So you have really pushed the car past where it should have had some routine repairs, and even if you paid to have all of these things done (which I would not recommend because of repair shop incompetence), it would still cost you much less than buying another used car with less miles. And it will still be much more reliable than your MGB (I have some personal experience with one of those too).

Likely the trans would have held up better too if the gear oil had been changed per the factory schedule, every 30,000 miles (about every 2 to 3 years). I bet that you have never had the gear oil changed in your trans, except perhaps when the clutch was replaced. Maintaining the car would have made it last a very long time.

[Mark Thump]

I'll have to check out the Pull-a-Part. As for keeping up with repairs, yes, I could have done better. I have a month or two before I will have garage space. Either it will still be here to work on, or it won't. If I don't keep it, I'm sure that it will be put to good use by someone. Actually I think it would be fun to pull the transmission apart. Never have taken apart a car transmission.

[stevenstercel4wd]

im interested im in spokane where might you be?

[Logbear]

I just towed this car home. That's makes 10 Tercel 4WD wagons I own now. I drove it up and down my road and the tranny does make some noise. But hey, the car moves itself and the AC works. I could just sit in it and stay cool today. I really should retire and start fixing up these Tercels.
When I figure out what the problem is I'll post another reply.

[Petros]

Hey Logbear, long time since I have seen you on the forum.

That must make you the number one source of Tercel4wds in the Pacific Northwest!

Some years ago I was driving around on Camano Island looking for a building I had to inspect and drove past a house that must have had six or seven T4wd lined up, with grass growing through them and berry bushes starting to over take them. Next time I was out there I tried to find the place and I could not, I even looked on Google Earth for it, to no avail. He may have moved. but you got him beat by a long shot.

[Ace]

A few decades ago I had a clicking/ticking noise in the transmission of my 1956 Willys Jeep (which I still own). I tracked it down to a chip in the reverse idler gear, no doubt caused by careless shifting. The reverse idler gear spins all the time with the countershaft, so it clicks according to engine speed regardless of gear engagement. I think this is generally true with manual transmissions.

As I recall, I tried smoothing off the edges of the chipped gear tooth, working through the top of the transmission, which I had rebuilt previously. That didn't entirely stop the clicking but over time it did go away by itself, I guess it wore itself smooth.

The original poster described his noise as "clicks - clacks", plus the clutch issue, so maybe that was more serious than what I had.

I see the original post is almost a year ago, but perhaps the info is still useful to someone.