4AGE carbing and how to custom manifold with a low budget!

[Lil Beast]

Hi I just bought this carbs today don't have them yet it's beeing shipped to me. Total cost of 70$ shipping included can't go wrong.

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They are off a 96 cbr600r, I think they are dead for the price not expecting much more. The item description said not working, for parts and it added 1 or 2 squirt and they should good to go??? Whatever that means.
So what I'm not sure is to revive these bad boys or just use them as itb's (individual throttle body's(empty the suckas out and only keep the butterfly valves)). . I'm trying to save money and time as my project it's just growing. And getting over my budget at the moment. And I want to at least have my engine running and install by mid-spring.

I got pretty much everything I need to make it work. Not to my full spec yet(G2 class) as I'm going Rally Racing (performance stage) with it. For this year I would like to have it done for some rallyx , TSD and maybe the historic car class wich the car qualify for with minor mods as it cheaper and do not need as much done on the car.

So my aim is have to have the 4AGE or 4AG running with no issues that's where carbing might come handy for 1st tune and work from there. I'm not planning in using the stock manifold not much can be done to it and it's so bulky and a pain in the ass to remove, it might be an issue between hood clearance and tower bracing on top of that I'll have to drop the engine a full 2 inches, not liking the idea of having a rock in the oil pan. I'll remain front wheel drive for the first year racing question of race regulation do not want to start in the open class, ill be owned or maybe not but I want to get to know the car better first stiffenig in the right place, etc... And have a light prep to it for racing (keep the weight balance and low as much as possible, suspension towers bracing, a bar for 5 point seatbelts, strong metal tie down for the battery, etc...)

To get back to fuel system and don't know if I could retain stock ecu with itb's. I could make a manifold to fit with TVIS cause I'm not gonna use bigger cams for starter they are pretty pricey 400+ a pop, make a custom airbox with the stock sensors(AFM and TPS) and keep stock fuel rail and injectors. If I make the picture in my head I don't see why that wouldn't work but don't know how well it will perform.

Than if I carb it I know it will work, probably 1st try and with a bit of tweaking make it perform most likely pretty damn good a certain RPM level and have a hell of a sound to it. I know I won't get the perfect tune and a smooth power curve but who or what's perfect?? Don't know any!!

Some of my question are does the TVIS would work with carbs? Is it triggered by the ECU or vacuums?

- Some say to lose it the only good reason I've found It's the quicker throttle response witch an EFI won't beat, good enough for me.

But could get maybe a better result on the power stability with TVIS on the lower rpm band under the 4000 range? Better road driveability maybe. Or lose it? as I race at high rpm and deal with it on the street, it will be my daily driver too.
I only found info on 1 guy that's is trying to keep TVIS with quads itb but is post got a lack on is info and I don't think is done yet either.

[Lil Beast]

As for the Ignition, well looks promising. Measurements ; well to save time I'll write the important, they are identical in base to shaft lenght 82 mm and for the shaft OD 9.5 mm. Only the gear is different 4age 24.5mm and 3ac 29mm and the don't spin the same way. Just to interchange the gear, remark it(a bit different on the timing aswell). And don't forget to wire properly the spark plugs as the #1 on the cap will be #3.

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[Petros]

carbs would simplify the whole swap if you can do it inexpensively, I like the idea a lot. It is just cheaper to use the EFI set up unless you get lucky, which you may have with that purchase. Perhaps you just need rebuild kit for carb set up.

Making a smaller EFI manifold would be a big help, allows you keep TVIS which is a big help in low end torque. Or perhaps cutting and welding the stock manfild to make it more compact will work.

ONe other simple mod that helps with low end is to use stock carbs with adjustable cam sprockets. exhuast goes to full advance, intake to full retart moves the torque peak lower into the rpm range. much cheaper than cams (and no one makes a high torqure low rpm cam for this engine, all move the power curve up even higher!)

[Lil Beast]

Making a smaller EFI manifold would be a big help, allows you keep TVIS which is a big help in low end torque. Or perhaps cutting and welding the stock manfild to make it more compact will work.

ONe other simple mod that helps with low end is to use stock carbs with adjustable cam sprockets. exhuast goes to full advance, intake to full retart moves the torque peak lower into the rpm range. much cheaper than cams (and no one makes a high torqure low rpm cam for this engine, all move the power curve up even higher!)

Nice mentioning about low end torque cause I'm not really after HP (HP sells and TORQUE wins) and the revs. Miss the revs so much use to be rotary, that's why it's nice you mentioned about adjusting cams, it's new to me, rotary's don't have none and my old ford truck does have towing cam but it's all in the manufacturer's spec.

So I do kind understand the concept I think been reading a lots of different thread on this but there's much confusion as pretty much nobody as the same set-up and the turbo guy's that comes in to play and they are the other way around. Meaning advance intake and retard exhaust to lower compression. Correct me if I'm wrong! Considering all that my cams are at 109 in 109 exhaust, so if I go gradually let say 112/113 in and 105/106 ex. Go with trial and error until it feels right.
Than make a set of Vernier style cam sprocket( redrilling a hole in my settings).

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Well you can kind a see the little dot between the 10 and 170 mark, by kind a using that method I canbe accurate maybe a bit time consuming, my wallet likes it HE! I'll buy the right dial tool in time when I'll afford a dYno shop, as long as it feels right under my foot.

As for I think carbs is the answer cheapest way to unleashed it's potential at first. Yes maybe EFI is cheaper at first to get it running if your lucky and find all the right stuff in a cheap bundle. Didn'
t got so lucky end-up with MR2 blue top. Same thing but a bit more conversion, did got lucky on carby! .

[Lil Beast]

And as the esthetic goes, I'll dig it more without that big bundle of wire :

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It will be sick with the sidedraughts can't wait to have them, they are being processed as we speak at the customs.

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I'll keep updates!!
Does anyone know if the TVIS is controlled by the computer? Cause if only vacuum controlled I don't see why I couldn't keep it with carbs!

[Petros]

I made a mistake on the cam timing: to improve mid ranger torque and hp 3000 to 6000 rpm (at the sacrifice of peak hp above 6k rpm), you retard the intake came about 10 deg, and advance the exhaust about 10 deg with adjustable sprokets.

longer intake runners also help low end torque, at the expense of peak hp.

You can see dyno results for a 4age here:

http://www.billzilla.org/engvariable.html

[Lil Beast]

Well thanks Petros for that page, as much as I knew about Bill Sherwood site and tought and red thru it all. I've must of missed that page !CHEERS!

As for the sprocket goes cause I'm a Cheapo, I'm gonna try tapping little pin holes at 2 degree margin to make them somewhat adjustable. If all fails, I'll try the cheap ebay ones for 70 bones a pair. But are they worth it if look at HKS for example at 400 a pair! Where's the catch?

Only 1 question remains how TVIS gets triggered, I know they open a 4000 rpm to have full flow of the 8 intake valves? What does it the ecu wich I think cause of the electrical connector to it or vacuums. If ecu could they be a way to trigger the TVIS with some sort of switch that turns on at 4000rpm?

When I think too about my mom telling me that my brother's lathe and drilling/milling are accumulating dust in the basement, what did I tought moving 6000 kms away. It's almost a shame! Wonder what would be the bill of the freight?

[Lil Beast]

Well everything looks promising so far hope this thread will help someone else too as I helped myself with it! Been doin research for a while and still learn. Even more just by a little simple thing I haven't done before this is to write it down and empty my head for new stuff! Always nice to go to bed less stupider

Ok I decided to crack open a beer and talk with my friend google, today he told me a lot!
I had to think outside the box a little, my thread was kind of popin too often, so found that TVIS is triggered by ecu to open at 4400rpm it's plugged on the ignition and grounded on ecu. So it got me thinkin a little and thought of how a shift light works . It needs power to open, so I'll use an adjustable rpm switch like this: http://m.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-830449-1
Hook it up to the TVIS and should work fine. Came to realize it's function with the torque band. I want it.
Found a lot on TVIS here: http://websworld.org/marcel/tech/tvis/tvis.html very interesting with graphs! Enjoy

[Lil Beast]

I thought I change the title as it's turning more as a How to's!

After a bit of a stall got back on things with a very affordable way to make stuff happen! Fiber glass and Carbon fiber!

I'm gonna start by making some various plugs to create a mold and cast! One cast that will represent the shape of the air volume and one mold that represent the shape of the final product to press fit the resin into the fiber for a nice finish!

Some of the product that ill be using for my molds and casts:
- plaster, pottery clay, porcelain clay, modeling dough, styrofoam, wood, bio-plastic, pam, hair spray( for the bad hair days!?!), clear coat, etc... All got different characteristic and one in common! The common one all biodegradable all the scrap can be whatever recycle or thrown in your garden pretty much with some advantage! Will describe some as I go with some cheap recipe in time.

1st step: Rough template

I should advise maybe, this is my first attempt a project like that, will see how it goes!
I'll be using pottery clay, the advantage is very easy to work with, doesn't dry if kept moist and low shrinkage(4-10 percent)

Here's my cheap recipe and it works like the real deal, wait a minute it is the real deal afterward!
You'll need unscented clumping cat litter it can be bought as cheap as 10$ for 22kg that will make a 100lb+ block of clay, don't know yet ill probably try weighing some day! The cheaper litter the better! Note you could probably use the scented aswell for freshness! You gonna want to make a mixing tray using a wood board and 2x6 for siding( maybe a rubbermaid could work but you got to bang this stuff)! After poor the litter in the tray, using a mister mist the surface then mix, mist again and mix, repeat several time until it gets pretty packed! You'll want to get a screwdriver or anything spiky and strong enough to break what's pack in piece to uncover what's dry, then again mist, mix, mist, mix, break,mist mix until desired consistency! You kind a want something hard that kind break clean but will pack good and have no clumps! You can store in cool place wrapped in plastic bag or moist cloth! The other great thing with this stuff it can be reuse even if bone dry by breaking old cast or mold in little pieces with hammer or grinding it with a mill, let soak in water until softened and you can make a runny paste and let dry until desired texture or work some soft pieces into a workable material! Or turn it back into some cat litter! Lol And for the pieces that are not very goo to reuse, throw it in the garden it has the advantage of holding moisture for a while(good for desertic places like my place, sandy soil, etc...)!

Time for bed and tomorrow get my hands dirty and some pics!

[Lil Beast]

Well got started a little on the Cat litter manifold, this stuff works great!

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As you may of notice, I'll be mounting my carbs in a 45 anlge to have the room to fit air box! One of the advantage of bike carb, they are design for bikes when they lean in the curves!

It will take a while to make the whole process but that is the reason why you pay big money for custom shops!
Should look good! Won't have much time to do more over the next 3-4 days! Thunderbird Rally it's the first stage of the TSD western regional rally championship, very popular and old! I think it the 65th edition, 60 cars registered there is even a waiting list ! Rallybc.com for info! I'm on the chrono, I'll be busy! Tomorrow is scouting! Should be fun!

[Lil Beast]

Well while I was gone the pieces I made dryed and cracked! Could be fixable, but figure I want a mix that don't dry out to have a nicer finish! So I'll experiment something with bees wax,baby oil and petroleum jelly melted together and add some argyle clay powder(cat litter but well grouded)! Should be interesting! But meanwhile I'll attempt something different! My cats kinda need what I got left! Lol
I've tried some homemade porcelain clay made with 1 cup starch, 2 cups salt and enough water to make a paste. Gently heat until forms together! It's kinda rubbery, may want less salt or use borax or baking soda(finer stuff)! Not very good for big pieces too rubbery won't hold shape very good when drying and have a rough finish! But could be use as a gap filler for making molds or to make a very rough first piece to give an idea of what it may look like! Can be moisten back with warm water to a playable dough again! Not much more too add!
I'll be trying a wood mold to cast some plaster plug! Should give a nice finish as it can be sand easily and painted to a polish finish but long to dry as much as a week so better start now! Can be baked although! So here is the start of it:

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I think it is best to experiment what materials suits you best! I need something hard at the beginning I'm not so gentle! And I'm all over the place doin many projects at the time! So I need something I can just drop and go without worrying that it will dry away and crack! So enough for the day!

[larry mcgrath]

Interesting build ,if your looking for some REAL GOOD info on 4ag set ups the best out there is Club4ag . These guys know more about these engines than any one around especialy the ecu and timing set up,an unbelevable source of info. I'm about 3 weeks away from having my 1983 tercell sr5 4x4 up and running with a 20v Black Top with a full computer set up. If the weather holds up so I can get the firewall preped for paint.Keep us posted on your progress Larry:

[Lil Beast]

Got the time to do a bit more work on the project!

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Was goin to write a little more but I figured the pics says it all!
So I'll be doing some finishing to smooth and even up every thing!

[Petros]

The proto-type shop at the big auto companies in the 1980's and '90's often still worked with wood, they would make experimental cores and molds with wood and bondo, and but them in wood boxes to form the sand castings to build the first per-production engines. This way they can do test runs, check fit, cooling and power demands, etc. before they actually invest in very costly production tooling. They had a small shop of skilled woodworkers, often with just hand tools, making things that looked like metal engine parts, and use those to make sand castings that were used to the first metal parts.

[Lil Beast]

Looks like my connection will let me finish!
Did more work it's start to look real good! Here a little bit on pics:

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By the way it doesn't need to be super perfect!
After the final sanding I will paint it and clear coat to have a finish I can clean and polish! Then cast some wax pieces that I use as plugs to do the final mold! The wax should be easy enough to shape the imperfection left by the mold! But will be able to somewhat see a preview of the final product! The toughest part is done!