OMG help

[Bluebelles Mom]

Ok, so I took the car to Firestone (they were having a sale on vehicle inspections). There is a list....
Tie rods, CV boots, BRAKES!!! (They didn't think much could be salvaged from either the front or back, they thought the car had been sitting for a long while and allowed to rust, they couldn't get the back drums off.), struts and shocks. Here is a question...they told me the Manifold gasket was leaking OIL (???) and the oil had gotten into the spark plug holes. I am no mechanic but I though the manifold gasket went between the head and the exhaust manifold. Is that a big oil leak area?????? They said it would cost over $4000 if they did all that work. They won't be doing any of it.

I knew I was buying an old car that would need some attention but I am feeling a bit overwhelmed just now. I am thinking the manifold gasket, plugs and wires first. The car stops fine, but brakes ought to be done very soon too from what they said. Then the rods and boots I guess. Does that sound like a plan? I am open to suggestions here guys.

[splatterdog]

Yikes! I think I would find another shop ASAP. Maybe one where the CEO is gettin your grease under his nails. All I can do to help there is to give you this link-http://www.iatn.net/shopfinder/ You could always gamble on craigslist services section too. Buyer beware, anyone with a pliers and a blow torch can post there.

Is fixing it yourself an option? These cars are simple and most parts are cheap. There's the FSM and plenty moral support to be found here. Maybe even a local member can offer you some affordable hands on help.

[danzo]

Don't be intimidated by shops - they have a female come in with an old car, kinda limited (for now) mech knowledge and they see a cash cow. It's really a shame that they don't see a chance to make a fair, longterm business relationship with you, but that's the way of the biz unfortunately. Very wise of you to stiff arm that shop.

As far as what they said to do - if the brakes are working fine then don't be immediately concerned. If they claim they couldn't even get the damn drums off then that's more reason for you to forget that shop's address. Torn CV boots will cause the CV joints to fail prematurely, but if you don't hear a clicking when you turn then you are OK for now. If your tie rods are bad then the car's steering will be very vauge, and they are pretty easy and cheap to change out. Not sure what the shop means about this manifold gasket/oil in plug holes (??). If the car runs fine then this is prolly more "rip off the customer" nonsense.

Suffice to say you need to bone up a bit on your car mech knowledge. But don't be overwhelmed - you've got a bunch of friendly folks right here to help.

[ARCHINSTL]

I second everyone's advice - PARTICULARLY danzo's comment about being clueless about removing the drums - if they don't know THAT...
Isn't there somone at the base's craft shop who could make some recommendations on a reputable shop?
You might also call AAA for a recommendation.
Another help would be to see if there is a local chapter of NOW (or even the League of Women Voters) to discover if they know of a place that is honest towards women (don't take this the wrong way; I have daughters, so I ain't being sexist - just practical).
Tom M.

[dlb]

bluebell, those things are easy enough to check for yourself. really quick:

tie rods: jack up the front of the car and grab one of the front wheels. pull it back and forth as if you are trying to turn a corner and then straighten out again. if there is play--that is to say, if the wheel clunks back and forth--you need to replace the tie rod. if the wheel is firm and does not wiggle, the tie rod is fine. repeat for other side.

cv boots: totally easy. there are two shafts with rubber accordion-looking things on them that go from a thing at the center of the car (the differential) to the center of each wheel. these are the cv joints. those accordion things on the cv joints are the boots and if the boots are torn, dirt and sh*t can get in there and wreck them. use the search feature here to see how to remove/replace cv joints. if money is tight you can just replace the boots but only as long as the joint itself is still good. if you hear clicking from a cv while driving, it's f*cked, and likewise if you take the boot off and find all kinds of scoring or chips.

brakes: even easier. take the front wheels off. remove the bolts that hold the brake caliper in place. take the caliper off the hub (the thing is was bolted to), being careful not to let the caliper dangle by the rubber hose that will still be attached to it. simply pull out the old pads and slide in the new ones and put the caliper back on the hub. check your rotors (the disc that your brakes clamp down on) and make sure it is pretty smooth. if one or both are all pock-marked you will have to replace the rotors on both sides. for rear brakes, take the rear wheels off and use a big f*cking hammer to wail on the drums, then try to pull the drums off. if they don't come, bash them some more. if this doesn't work after about 5 minutes you have to access the inner face of the rear hub. there's a rubber plug (unless it's fallen out). remove it and put a small flat head screw driver in there. this is super frustrating until you get the knack: there is a little gear in there that you have to turn. one direction will tighten it and one will loosen it, and you want to loosen it. this retracts the brake shoes away from the drum so that they aren't holding on to the drum when you try to pull it off. it's nearly impossible to tell which way to push the gear, but trial and error will tell you. once you get it and remove the drum, inspect the inside of the drum and make sure there aren't any big ridges showing excessive wear. then look at the shoes (the big semi-circles) and make sure there is lots of brake pad on them. if they're really low in any spot, top or bottom, replace them.

you're right about the manifold gasket. it shouldn't leak oil unless there's something catastrophic going on, which you would know because the car wouldn't run by now. also, the manifold is on the opposite side from the spark plugs so that garage is full of sh*t. which we already know since they can't even remove a brake drum--seriously, that's pathetic. it's like a baker telling you he can't make bread. if there's a lot of oil dripping down to the spark plugs it may be from the valve cover gasket, which is pretty easy actually.

don't be overwhelmed, it sounds bad but it's really just a few routine things. do the brakes first because there's no point in moving if you can't stop, then zip-tie some heavy duty ziploc bags around any torn cv boots until you can get to them, and then do them and the tie rods at the same time when you get the chance.

like splatterdog said, check the factory service manual here for more info on doing this stuff yourself. the link is at the top of every page. it's a b*tch to navigate but whatevs, it's free.

[takza]

Instead of the manifold gasket...they probably meant the valve cover gasket was leaking oil down onto the sparkplugs?

I wouldn't panic....sounds like a normal inspection for an older driver? Like "he" said...if the brakes work OK...they're OK for now. CV boots are no biggies...new or rebuilt axles EVENTUALLY. Tie rods can make a noise if they are only slightly loose....could be inners or outers....main thing is that the car steers OK. If you can't do the work yourself...best bet is to find a good mechanic with reasonable rates and tackle one thing at a time.

This car would be an ideal candidate for a shop class to tackle if you could find some place like that....where students under supervision repair cars.

[Bluebelles Mom]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the tips. I do plan on doing most, if not all the work myself. There is a auto hobby shop here on base. They are open Wed-Sat so I plan on being there tomorrow first thing.

I am thinking it may need a new valve cover gasket if it's leaking a bit of oil as they said. I have never heard of oil leaking from a manifold gasket. Plugs and wires are at the top of the list along with differential and trans oil. While it's up on a lift I will check the tie rods and take a closer look at the other issues.

Would it be OK to spray some sort of 'break-free- lub on/around the drums in preparation to remove them to see what I have? Firestone told me they were afraid the drums would 'break' if they tried to remove them. Another thing I have never heard of. That 59 MGA I bought had totally bad brakes, the drums were still able to be turned and used.

[dlb]

i wouldn't put lube near the drums because if it gets on any of the braking surfaces it could cause big problems. if you really want to try something like that i would take off the rear wheels and put just a tiny amount of penetrating oil or ATF (board member petros swears it's the best penetrant) at the base of the studs, where they poke through the drums. let it sit for a day and then try banging the drums off again. if corrosion is the issue this will get at it without risking brake failure but be VERY modest in your application because the stuff will seep around!

good idea on taking that class. i only started wrenching this year because my wife's truck was hooped and it was a very steep learning curve. i definitely have way less experience than most of the guys on here but once you understand the basic principles of each system within a car (brakes, engine, suspension, etc.) it makes it way easier to troubleshoot problems. also, with such a massive resource here, as long as you have the tools and the perseverance, there's little you won't be able to do on your terc for yourself!

[takza]

About the first thing I learned about car work was to BACK OFF the adjusters if you want to remove a rear drum...trust me it's easier...no make that possible. Some oil on the center hub and at the studs won't hurt anything if you don't go overboard. And you can use some threaded bolts in the two holes in the drum to get them off...a little at a time....think they are 5/16" coarse?

If there are other people working on their cars at that hobby shop...try bringing cupcakes and so forth...the Car Guys say that works...and they just don't lie. You could even set up a pastry stand and get it all done for free?

[splatterdog]

Takza- this is a Jap car. The puller holes in the drum are 8mmx1.25. Use them slowly while tapping on the drum with a hammer. They strip easily or even crack the drum flange if you're not careful.

Toyota drums always come off tough. Tight tolerances and rust always hang them up. After it's off, I put a ittle anti seize around the center button on the axle flange for the next time.

If the drum loosens but still won't come off, then back the adjusters down. A little tricky if you havent done it before. Worst case- if you end up man handling it all the way off, the hold down springs will pull off their pins. Whole rear hardware kits are pretty cheap.

Pull the boots back on the wheel cylinders. No fluid should come out. Also pay special attention to the front rubber hoses. I haven't seen a T4 that didn't need them.

[Petros]

Nothing in your list sounds like it is urgent, so do not panic, yet. This sounds like the typical set-up to burn a newbie customer. I had one national tire store chain "warn" me about my brakes being worn when I had them do my alignment, I drove it for two more years (40k plus miles) without issues and than up graded to the vented front disks (old brakes were still working). Brakes rarely just fail or stop working all at once, they give you plenty of warning. Another time my wife was warned the brakes were about to fail on an old Mercedies Benz we had and she should not drive it, I came home to look at it and the only thing wrong was the fluid was low causing the "check brakes" warning light to come on. That price of over $4000 definitely sounds like a rip-off, all the things you listed should cost less than half that in an honest shop.

Good advise on the tie-rod ends already given, you can tolerate a little play (like 1/16") but once they start wearing it should get replaced since they will continue to degrade. If there is more than 1/4" play it means the wear is so large they could break off while you are driving and could be very dangerous and should be replaced right away.

If you are going to do your brakes, replace the front brakes rotors and calipers with the '92 or newer Tercel rotors and calipers. It is not worth replacing the front brakes with stock brakes, they are way undersized for this car. See my thread on how to do it: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4998

Removing rear drums have never been an issue for me, even for cars not driven for many years. You can put some penetrating oil on if worried about working them off the axles, direct the spray to where the drum meets the center hub, it will not get on the brakes.

I would say many of the older front wheel drive cars have torn boots on the front axles and the drivers never even know it. This is not a safety issue, it will only cause the CV joint to wear out faster. If there is no play in the CV joint you can clean the joint and repack it with CV grease and put a new boot on it. A CV kit is only about $20 or so, if the joint has slop or play than just replace the whole axle assembly with a new one.

An oil leak is common on older cars and has no consequence other than to just make sure you check the level, and it makes a mess. It is impossible for oil to come from the intake manifold, it has to be the valve cover gasket. You likely do not even need a new one, just remove the valve cover, clean both sides and put sealant on it and replace the valve cover. IF the gasket is damaged, replacing it is easy enough.

This is all normal maintenance stuff that occurs as a car gets older. That is one of the draw backs to owning an older car, there are always issues like this to keep after and why it is not worth owning an older if you can not do the work yourself. IT will eat you up in minor repair costs. Replacing a hose, a belt, a gasket, you can do yourself for less than $10, but a shop would charge you over $100 each, sometimes much more. I like owning older cars like this that I can keep fixing for little money and drive forever, but I would never recommend owning this car, or any similarly old car, to anyone that could not do their own maintenance. These are very reliable little 4x4 wagons, but when they get this old, any inexpensive hose, seal, gasket, etc. can fail at anytime, and unless you can fix it, could lead to very expensive damage.

Good luck.

[Bluebelles Mom]

Ok, again...thank you to all of you. I left early this morning to go skiing so I just got home. On the way back I stopped and did some shopping. So, in the car to take to the auto hobby shop tomorrow is: plugs, wires, front disk pads, rear shoes (the brake light is on in the dash and brakes seem kinda important to me), air filter, fuel filter, synthetic oil for trans, and a blend (all they had) 80-90 for the differential and new wiper blades since I found out today that I need them. I tried to buy a new valve cover gasket but they said it could be either of two they had listed and I had no idea which one I needed.

[xirdneh]

I have to throw in my 2 cents worth
if the rear drums are loose but will not pull off you need to back off the adjuster as stated
and as stated it can be a pain in the .........
if the drums are not loose and the penetrating oil does not loosen them up
i have had luck taking a torch and heating up the area around the hole in the center of the drum
i usually use a propane torch but a hotter torch will do it faster
sometimes you will hear a distinct noise when it pops free

[Petros]

Usually if the brake light is on the only thing wrong is the fluid level if low (the light comes on with a float switch in the master reservoir). the level does drop as the pads wear. Most likely the front pads if anything, the rears last 100k or more.

I highly recommend a blend of 50/50 synthetic and regular gear oil in the trans. The trans was not designed for something as slippery as modern synthetic gear oil so the syncromesh will cause gear clashing with the shifts if you run 100 percent synthetic. The mixture will still protect the trans and the mix will be good enough to keep the shifting smooth. Make sure you follow the procedure elsewhere in this forum for draining and refilling the transaxle, it is not easy to make sure you have it full, so make sure you get at least 4 quarts in it.

Get some Permatex form a gasket to use on the valve cover, likely you can reuse the existing one unless it is completely falling apart. I do not know what the parts store is seeing in their listing, to my knowledge there is only one gasket for all the years of all 3a and 3ac engines. I have owned 5 Tercel4wd, and worked on a lot of others.

Good luck. Let us know what you find.

[Petros]

oh yes, how was the skiing? where did you go? I might go this saturday.