Bizzare Ignition Timing/Plug Wire ? Please help!

[Glenn]

Hey all, I am trying to get my 87 going and am having some weird issues with timing, probably doing something wrong but right now I am stumped.

I bought this 87 with a brand new rebuilt long block, would barely start and run when I got it, basically no power, by the time I got it towed back home it was worse, just to keep it at idle you have to give it full throttle.

I pulled the valve cover and made sure #1 Cyl (very front of engine) was at TDC, I then checked all valve clearances per manual...I also made note that it looked like rotor was pointing to #1 on the cap. Ok fine. I figured the carb was in need of a rebuild as it looks awful, pulled another really good looking one of a 86 hatchback in the pick n pull today, car had not been there long and looked in good shape, especially the carb.

I replaced the carb today and fixed and checked ALL vacuum lines.

I also bought an 85 that runs fine, I am using that car to make sure I have all the vacuum lines hooked up correctly and anything else...and here is where it gets weird.

I assume that the Cyl order is 1-2-3-4 from radiator back and you are supposed to runs the plug wires from corresponding number on cap to cyl # ...correct??

On my 85 that runs fine, previous owner took a sharpie and marked on the valve cover 4-3-2-1 with #1 being closest to the firewall, #4 being the closest to the radiator (front of engine)! He has all the plug wires going from respective numbers on cap to same numbers he has marked on engine!! IS THIS RIGHT? It runs fine!

So as of now i have tried swapped wires around a bit on the 87 and best result I can get is same when I picked up the car, will barely run with pedal floored.

I realize the distributor may be off a tooth on the 87, or maybe they installed the timing belt wrong?? Could be anything I know as this is a fresh install of a rebuilt engine that has no time on it (basically)

Sorry this is long and confusing, here are some pictures...if my 87 should be like my 85 I will switch it around and then try to see if the distributor is off...

Here is what my 1987 looks like now...I probably have this screwed up!






THIS IS WHAT THE 85 THAT RUNS FINE LOOKS LIKE RIGHT NOW:

[4wdchico]

I it were me, I would check the cam timing first. if you find that off, bet you will, you will then need to re-index the distributor and re-time it also.

As far as the '85 that runs fine, my wild internet diagnosis guess is that the previous owner installed the distributor 180 degrees off. That would make the distributor one full revolution off of crank timing and switching the wires would be a back handed fix for that.

Yes, the #1 cylinder is at the front of the block.

One of the wisest things I ever learned was that you never mess with a carburetor without making dead sure first that everything else is ok on a misbehaving engine.

Have fun.

[Glenn]

Thanks man!!! I used to live in Chico and went to CSUC, my adopted home town!!

Well, on the advice of my brother I adjusted the distributor, since it barely ran with mega advance he figured it may be off a tooth, and sure enough after I pulled the distributor out a bit and advanced it a bit it fires right up and runs very brisk...I do need to adjust the timing obviously and also the carb as it still seems to idle high after I adjusted the front screw...

On the 85, I did not even think the thing could run switched around like that..will have to sort it out!!

I knew I was not 100% on the carb being an issue but I am kinda glad I swapped it out as I think the new(er) one is in much better shape, it sure looks a 100 times better and I will keep the one I pulled off as a spare or a rebuild experiment...these things are kinda complicated for carbs!!

Any other thoughts on the 85 are surely appreciated...my 87 is looking to be a much better deal now as long as the new engine was rebuilt correctly...little bit of noise from the valve train but I will go back and check adjustments again!

[keith]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3700

[Glenn]

Got it sorted with the 87, just need to time it tonight, but now have to dig in the 85 as it must be installed 180 out, but also I think I have a bad head gasket so will fix it all up.

Does anyone know much about the third vacuum line going to the distributor, it makes use of a metal line running across the engine bay, I think it is HAI high altitude something or other? Mine was blocked off on my 87 but my 85 has it...I found the extra line in a junk car at the yard so I have now installed it in t he 87, just wondering if you leave it plugged for setting timing or plug it, what exactly does it do?

[ARCHINSTL]

You are correct on it being for the HAI (if you mean the pipe with the restriction). I disconnected mine long ago (before the Weber) when I was attempting to find an elusive RPM cycling (which was only solved with the Weber).
If you're not "at altitude" you don't need it. Well, maybe for the Emissions Police. Of course, a BB or two could always find its way into the tubing...
Tom M.

[Glenn]

Yeah I am at 4300 feet so will leave it. I do have to pass emmissions but no visual, just a sniffer test.

I just put new cap, rotor and wires on the 87, fires instantly, just need to time it now and go for a test drive!!

[Glenn]

Having some issue getting this timed.

I removed both vacuum lines and plugged, left the HAI vacuum on, not sure if it makes a difference. Seems way advanced as the mark is way to the left, if I retard it and get it closer to the "20" mark on crank pulley it wants to die.

Is it possible I went a tooth to far on the distributor?

[Glenn]

Any chance the timing belt is off a tooth? Anyone ever experienced this? Are these interference engine? If so, how many teeth off do you have to be to have something hit something else?

[4wdchico]

Any chance the timing belt is off a tooth? Anyone ever experienced this? Are these interference engine? If so, how many teeth off do you have to be to have something hit something else?

To clear up any possible confusion: correct cam timing means not having the timing belt "off a tooth", or several teeth, for that matter. If there was no possibility that your cam timing was off, why would I have suggested that checking it be your #1 priority in my earlier post?

Once again, in slightly different words: If it were me I would make dead sure that the cam timing is correct first. As in before doing or speculating about anything else. If you are not willing to start with the most basic issue, and work up from there in a logical progression, I have no choice but to think that you wish to engage in chasing your tail. Sorry, but I do not use my time attempting to help tail chasers.

If the engine is stock, it is a non-interference engine.

Because there are so many ways for your vac system to be messed up, I strongly suggest you set your base ignition timing with all of the vac lines to the vac advance on the dizzy disconnected and plugged.

[Glenn]

Thanks Chico, when I had the valve cover off the other day to check clearance I could kinda peek in there and it looked like the marks were lined up on the pulley...and since engine was new rebuild from a machine shop I assumed....


Here is what I am looking at now with upper timing cover off. Engine is at TDC, and if I am reading the diagram in FSM correct then it looks like it is ok Marks are right on, both crank and cam pulley (if I am reading things right) :

I better have another look at my distributor, but please have a look at the pictures and let me know what you think, and thanks for replying.

[Glenn]

[Petros]

that looks correct to me.

[4wdchico]

It looks like you have everything lined up properly . I could not tell if your timing marks on the front cover also are lined up with the notch on the pulley when all of the other timing marks are also in alignment. If the pulley mark is also in alignment, I would suggest checking the valve adjustment since you have everything opened up and in alignment to start to do so. Page EM-33 in the FSM gives you the procedure and please note that the valve clearance specs given there are for a cold adjustment and the spec is 0.007" for the intakes and 0.011" for the exhaust valves. I have had engines with strange symptoms much like you are having that simply had valves that were too tight.

The link that keith posted has good info on getting the base timing very close w/o the engine running.

Since you mention setting the idle with the front screw, in an earlier post, you would be well served to see item #15 on page MA-9 of the FSM, it is the procedure for setting the idle speed. You will see in that procedure that the idle adjustment screw is on the back side of the carb. My guess is that you have been trying to set the idle speed with the throttle positioner screw, (TP in FSM speak). Trying to adjust the idle with the TP screw will lead to wacky results.

Check the below link out, it give a great over view of using a vac gauge to troubleshoot engine problems. Vac gauges are cheap & easy to use & easy to interpret.

Enough for now???

[4wdchico]

It looks like you have everything lined up properly . I could not tell if your timing marks on the front cover also are lined up with the notch on the pulley when all of the other timing marks are also in alignment. If the pulley mark is also in alignment, I would suggest checking the valve adjustment since you have everything opened up and in alignment to start to do so. Page EM-33 in the FSM gives you the procedure and please note that the valve clearance specs given there are for a cold adjustment and the spec is 0.007" for the intakes and 0.011" for the exhaust valves. I have had engines with strange symptoms much like you are having that simply had valves that were too tight.

The link that keith posted has good info on getting the base timing very close w/o the engine running.

Since you mention setting the idle with the front screw, in an earlier post, you would be well served to see item #15 on page MA-9 of the FSM, it is the procedure for setting the idle speed. You will see in that procedure that the idle adjustment screw is on the back side of the carb. My guess is that you have been trying to set the idle speed with the throttle positioner screw, (TP in FSM speak). Trying to adjust the idle with the TP screw will lead to wacky results.

Check the below link out, it give a great overview of using a vac gauge to troubleshoot engine problems. Vac gauges are cheap & easy to use & easy to interpret.

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

Enough for now???