A few items, Last Chance...

[Teddy]

Hey Tercel Freaks.

So, I haven't had the requisite time resources to hunt down a straight Tercel 4WD to hotrod, and no one here on the boards (currently) has assisted me in doing so, either.

I'm not crying, we all have lives.

Anyways, unless I find a car in the next month or so, I am going to bail on the whole Tercel 4WD thing.

However, that being said? I would like to... dangle some bait.

<bait follows>

After having built 7A-GE, 7A-FE, 7A-C, 4AG-E, 4A-C, 3A-S, 3A-LEU, and 3A-GZE 4WD wagons in the last 6 years, I can tell you that in *my* opinion, the single best hotrod swap is not a Toyota engine at all, but in fact, the 1.6-1.9 VW turbodiesel motors.

With fuel enrichment and boost, these easily tuned (purely mechanically fuel injected) motors can make up to 110 horsies, and 250 ft. lbs of torque, idle at 750 RPM all day, and propel a 4WD Tercel Wagon up and down hills, through the dirt and down the highway at 45 MPG. They also have a typical life expectancy (before rebuild) of approx. 500K miles, if well treated. No tuning, no adjustments... just change oil, oil filter, air filter, and glow plugs every 200K miles.

Beat that.

You can't. Do you want to know HOW I know this? Because I had a weird (surreal) hookup in Orlando, Florida, about 2 months ago... the dude paid me to do the conversion. He even paid for the heinous machinists fees (bellhousing adapter/spline/starter) and had some local speed shop weld in the motor mounts.

It was fun.

Anyways. I might be willing to pursue having mounts prefabricated in large quantities as well as the transmission adapter...

IF.

There were enough people interested. And by interested, I mean... people who WANT to do this swap, and have the money.

Let me know.

Ciao,
Teddy

[terceldude]

How about a 7A-GTE???? Or a 7A-GTZE????? Those things would haul ass!!! You could even get a 3S-GE in there or even a 3S-GTE!!!!

[hberdan]

What about transmission issues? I was under the impression that the Tercel 4x4 transmission couldn't handle more than 100 ftlb of torque.
Otherwise, I really like the idea. What kind of costs are involved in a switch like this>? Total, I mean, engine, mounts, converter, etc., inc. how much labor?

[Neu]

I doubt i'd end up using the tercel tranny if I did a VW diesel swap. I'd just use a normal 5 manual VW tranny and have a transfer case. It'd end up being easier that way.

[Teddy]

hberdan:

Well, we were definitely blowing up a lot of trannies, about four years ago. However, we had very good results with getting the transmissions rebuilt BEFORE punishing them... uprated bearings and races and bushings and cryo-hardened, moly-impregnated first gears, coated synchros, polished collars and layshafts, etc.

We also had excellent results with Amsoil synthetics in the case (and we had the expected terrible results with almost every "additive").

What we DIDN'T have good experience with, was, putting the transmissions back together, after we blew them up.

The sharp steel internals would often carve through the sides of these little cases like butter.



For anyone in the NW area, I highly recommend Seatac Transmission, located (oddly enough) by the Seatac Airport, on 99.

http://tinyurl.com/bchojv

I have probably sent 20-25 transmissions through there in the last eight years, and I haven't regretted it once. They are not "cheap", but they are damn good.

Anyways. I have put more than 100K miles in a 6 speed 4WD Tercel with a motor that made wayyyyyyyyyyy more than 100 ft. lbs of torque... I just never stomped it in first or reverse, and made gentle upshifts to second.

Of course, the automatic transmission doesn't have any of the frailties (regarding driveline torque) that the manual transmission does...

[hberdan]

I doubt i'd end up using the tercel tranny if I did a VW diesel swap. I'd just use a normal 5 manual VW tranny and have a transfer case. It'd end up being easier that way.

Wouldn't it just be less hassle to buy a VW, if that'w what you'd end up with? After all, it's the 4x4 that makes the Tercel so extraordinary.

[Neu]

I doubt i'd end up using the tercel tranny if I did a VW diesel swap. I'd just use a normal 5 manual VW tranny and have a transfer case. It'd end up being easier that way.

Wouldn't it just be less hassle to buy a VW, if that'w what you'd end up with? After all, it's the 4x4 that makes the Tercel so extraordinary.

I guess, but it'd be nice to have a real low gear.

EL is nice, but there have been times for me when it's too high.

[Petros]

About how much would a VW diesel to Tercel 4wd swap cost, either turn key, or as a kit?

About how much the Seatac Trans charge to do a "durability" overhaul for a Twd trans? This might be worth it in the long run, sooner or later we are going to run out of good used T4wd trans.

I noticed on a list of available engnes somewhere on the Corollas, they had an optional Toyota diesel which was about 1 percent of all Corollas sold. It seems to me if this Toyota diesel fit in the 4AC, 4AFE and 4AGE equiped Corollas, this engine would be an easy swap into a Tercel. Presuming the engine mounts and bell housing bolt up is the same, which it stands to reason that it would (unless they have different trans in the Diesel Corollas), this would be something to investgate.

Anyone know anything about the diesels that came in the '85-94 Corollas?

[splatterdog]

About how much would a VW diesel to Tercel 4wd swap cost, either turn key, or as a kit?
Anyone know anything about the diesels that came in the '85-94 Corollas?

I would think cost is one of those 'If you have to ask...." questions

I've worked on hundreds of corolla's beginning in the mid 80's and have never seen a diesel. Probably down to .01% for survivors by now with everything else crushed years ago. All the diesel powered cars big and small seemed to have gone away long before their gas counterparts.

And shame on you Teddy for helping to diminish trans availability for everyone else. haha

If I wanted a hot rod, my T4 would be the last one to get so heavily morphodited. Unless there's snow on the ground, I only race granny's and geo metro's. I also wouldn't have a "hot rod" that I couldn't drop the hammer down at will and having to worry about trans detonation.

[Teddy]

Petros:

Firstly, here are the relevant diesel engines that you are asking about:

C series (4 cylinders, 1.8-2.0L): Carina RWD, Corolla RWD, Camry

1C 86 1839 58@4500 78@2800 83 85 23:1
1C-T 83-85 1839
2C 83- 1974 73@4700 98@3000 86 85 23:1
2C 86 1974 75@4700 97@2600 86 85 23:1
2C 86 1974 70@4700 94@2600 86 85 23:1
2C-T 86 1974 88@4500 123@2400 86 85 23:1
3C-TE 99 2184 94@4000 152@2200 86 94 22.6

Note that the 3C-TE *looks* like its part of the same family, but, trust me... that motor is not one bit easier to stuff into our engine bays than a veedub would be (different transmissions, different mounting, etc.).

The 1C and 2C diesels will, in fact, bolt into our engine bays. The motor mounts line up with holes and everything.

However? Not exactly the most ubiquitous engines, parts are not terribly prevalent (good luck finding a rear main seal for your 2C-T at the local Napa Auto Parts).

I have attempted to hunt down a ready fount for the 2C-T (2.0 liter mechanically fuel injected turbodiesel motor), but to no avail.

The only place I find them easily (and often) is from/in Thailand, and the shipping from Thailand is heinous.

Besides, the 2C and 3C series of engines are NOT known to be nearly as bulletproof and stubborn and tenacious as the 1.9 liter 105 HP, 205 ft. lb. of torque Volkswagen AFD engines (many of which are implemented in industrial applications).

The veedub motor is extremely common (not just in North America, but globally) and the parts will be available for about another 10 years.

Secondly,

I would say the "average" price for the average Joe doing this conversion is/will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $700.

- Teddy

[Teddy]

Just to make sure everyone is "on the same page", here...

And why I want a diesel 4WD Tercel...

With the veedub motor, our cars would be able to climb up steep dirt hills in 4WD almost at idle, due to the awesome torque...

No ignition system (no cap, coil, ignitor, plugs, distributor, etc.)

No routine carb tuneups (has anyone ever noticed that the Weber REQUIRES tuning, every 10,000 miles?)

Hydraulic valves, so, no valve adjustments.

EASILY half the 0-60 times and probably shave about 5 seconds off the 1/4 mile times (this would be handy on Southern California freeways, for example)

And about 45-50 miles to the gallon.

[splatterdog]

Petros:

I would say the "average" price for the average Joe doing this conversion is/will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $700.

- Teddy

I don't buy that. A quick nationwide search on car-part shows it takes over $2000 to get an OK engine. Sometimes there's core on top of that. You sure you didn't forget a zero? Where's the heinousnous?

The "average joe" wouldn't be able to do this without a 100%bolt in kit. For anyone less mechanically inclined it would be hard to find a shop to touch this much less for even $700 in labor.

I'm not knocking your accomplishments. I've done rediculous things to cars. The most rediculous were the one I was getting paid to do. Does the end justify the means here. Hard to say. You better be a serious doityourselfer with a conversion like this cause most shops will like your terc even less than it is when it is stock.

Furthermore, you are in a T4wd rich enviroment. Here in the rust belt I drool over your regions craigslist listings. I don't think you've been looking very hard.

[terceldude]

I don't buy that. A quick nationwide search on car-part shows it takes over $2000 to get an OK engine. Sometimes there's core on top of that. You sure you didn't forget a zero? Where's the heinousnous?

The "average joe" wouldn't be able to do this without a 100%bolt in kit. For anyone less mechanically inclined it would be hard to find a shop to touch this much less for even $700 in labor.

I'm not knocking your accomplishments. I've done rediculous things to cars. The most rediculous were the one I was getting paid to do. Does the end justify the means here. Hard to say. You better be a serious doityourselfer with a conversion like this cause most shops will like your terc even less than it is when it is stock.

Furthermore, you are in a T4wd rich enviroment. Here in the rust belt I drool over your regions craigslist listings. I don't think you've been looking very hard.

I think splatter has a point here!!! To back him up on the T4wd hate thing when not fully stock, I worked in a Toyota dealership and let me tell you that all of the mechanics there that I talked to about this said that VW's are the worst brand in the world and if someone pulled into the delaership with a VW, they would be laughed at big-time.... Kind of like if you had put in a VW tranny, transfer case and engine in a T4wd..... My mentors even said they would laugh at me if I had bought a VW and not my Tercel and drove into the shop with one... Obviously I don't believe that it is the worst brand in the world, but Toyota is above them in reliability and durability... I know they made engines that looked nearly identical to the engines in our Tercs, for example with the 1989ish Cabriolets, but Toyota ones have the better reputation to "not die"... Also, what kind of torque or HP would you get from the best VW motor out there and how on earth would you get the damn thing to bolt up to the stock tranny or any other parts of the car.. How would you wire the darn thing up to the stock TOYOTA wiring, lol??? One of my mentors called my VW shop mentor an idiot... I don't know why, but maybe because he worked for VW... When Typrus mentioned a VW 1.8L TDI motor in a T4wd in an earlier post, I thought he was insane, but I guess anything can be done with cars, in this case, a T4wd... If any of you guys successfully throw a VW motor, tranny and transfer case in there, holla at me, as I'd love to see pics, despite the fact I am never going to do that swap.... "I am interested in what the hell you guys do, just not if it involves killing the Terc, lol!"

[Petros]

And why I want a diesel 4WD Tercel...

With the veedub motor, our cars would be able to climb up steep dirt hills in 4WD almost at idle, due to the awesome torque...
No ignition system (no cap, coil, ignitor, plugs, distributor, etc.)
No routine carb tuneups (has anyone ever noticed that the Weber REQUIRES tuning, every 10,000 miles?)
Hydraulic valves, so, no valve adjustments.
EASILY half the 0-60 times and probably shave about 5 seconds off the 1/4 mile times (this would be handy on Southern California freeways, for example)
And about 45-50 miles to the gallon.

The more power from a 4afe or 4age (or 7afe?) will give you more speed and climbing power, and they are likely much lighter and accelerate faster too. These engines are an easier and cheaper swap into a Tercel too.

I have owned several diesel powered cars, trucks and even a tractor, although they have no ELECTRICAL ignition system, they still have to have a lot of things work correctly to get the fuel to ignite, lots to go wrong and they are not necessarily more reliable that a quality Toyota solid state ignition system. Diesel can require as much maintainable as any other type of engine, and everything costs more too.

The EFI engine eliminates the carb too, and I would say that the Toyota EFI is very reliable, and much less costly to service and repair than a diesel FI system.

I hear that the 4age equipped Corollas get as good as 42 mpg (when driven easy), in a Tercel it could even be higher, and gasoline costs less than diesel. I am doing a few alterations to the exhaust and engine to improve the economy even more too.

It seems highly unlikely that even an experienced do-it-yourselfer could do a VW diesel swap into a T4wd for $700. My 4age swap will come in at about $1200-1500 including a performance clutch, lightened flywheel and a high quality performance rebuild on the engine (which I am doing myself, but machining and parts still add up), this also includes the purchase of the core engine and related EFI and ignition parts. About half of that is from the rebuild alone and I need almost no special made parts, just some alterations. So how is $700 possible? Custom flywheel, machining the bell housing, custom engine mounts, custom exhaust systems, new throttle linkage, new fuel pump and what else?

[hberdan]

My 4age swap will come in at about $1200-1500 including a performance clutch, lightened flywheel and a high quality performance rebuild on the engine (which I am doing myself, but machining and parts still add up), this also includes the purchase of the core engine and related EFI and ignition parts. About half of that is from the rebuild alone and I need almost no special made parts, just some alterations.

Oh man, I want pictures!