Too Rich??

[Typrus]

Ok. I decided to pull my O2 sensor and plugs last night to just examine them. The O2 sensor went first. After a mere 500 miles or so, it had a moderatly thick layer of carbon on it. Normal? Not normal?
I pulled the plugs, all but #4.
#1- insulator white on one side, with a slightly shiny sheen. The other side was a golden, almost rust color. Slightly shiny as well. The ground electrode had a thick, black and grey deposit on it, harder than a rock and somewhat shiny.
#2- Same story with the ground electrode, just a little more grey. The inslulator was black and reddish-gold, the black slightly more shiny than the reddish-gold color.
#3- Thicker black deposits on the g.e. There was mostly black goop on the insulator.

What is going on? It runs great (except when cold) and I wasn't suspicious of anything until I pulled the plugs.
My plugs are side-gapped and indexed to within 15 degrees of straight up on any piston.
NGK Type R's or S's... Can't remember.


My biggest concern is that if that kind of crap is building on the sparks, whats happening on the piston and rest of the combustion chamber?

[takza]

My old O2 had some carbon on it.

I think no 3 was the cleanest looking...the black goop on that one I'd worry about a little.

[Typrus]

....... But what does it mean?

[takza]

From what I've picked up on this list...the third cylinder typically runs the leanest....and it did look a little cleaner on mine...an engine that still gets 5K per quart.

Black goop can only mean one thing....oil burning? Or that plug isn't firing very well? I'd use some heavier oil in it...espec if you are using something real lightweight.

Bosch plats will fire in oil...put in a set of singles...set the timing back a little and see if your mpg goes up?

Clean those plugs up?

Time for the famous Seafoam treatment?

[Typrus]

Heh... I ran a tank of the foam and cleaned with the Creep maybe 1000 miles ago, to the tune of shiny plugs. Thats one reason I'm so concerned.

At the same time, if I am indeed burning up some oil, why isn't there any goop, dry carbony soot aside, on the O2 sensor? Wouldn't it all have a tendency to flow back out?

I have a set of single-plats sitting around somewhere that I pulled out of this engine when I first got it in favor of the NGK's. I hope I still have all 4.


Are there any tests to rule in/out oil? A guy at the local AZ said he suspected bad gas and a PCV problem. Well, I DID replace my PCV about 500-600 miles ago. And I fill up on King Sooper's gas. But why would that be bad? They have to refill the tanks EVERY day, sometimes twice a day. Everyone is so eager to pay 5 cents less, plus the 3 cents off for membership, OR 10 cents a gallon off on a whole tank if you spend over $100 on your card in a single month. lol.


If it is oil, I suppose the next step is to find out why/where-from. Stem seals? Rings? Is the NEW PCV a faulty unit? Is there a little gnome pouring oil into my carb at night?

The stems and rings both, I could definitly see as an issue. Why wouldn't they be? I have over 190,000miles on the engine. I guess my next issue, assuming either one of those is bad, is to find out how much the local machinists charge for honing/finishing or perhaps overboring. So I suppose I should examine rebuild kits lol.

Am I blowing this way out of proportion? It IS 6:30 in the morning after all....

[xirdneh]

At the same time, if I am indeed burning up some oil, why isn't there any goop, dry carbony soot aside, on the O2 sensor? Wouldn't it all have a tendency to flow back out?



My experience with the 3ac engine is that they run for hundreds of thousands of miles but they begin to use oil and loose oil at certain points of that journey. Somewhere around 180,000 miles they begin using notable amounts of oil between changes. When they begin to do this depends on several things (frequency of oil changes, letting oil level get low, how car is driven etc) . By the time they get to 300,000 miles they can be using a quart every week or two even though there is hardly any visiible blue smoke coming from the exhaust.
The oil seals begin leaking around 200,000 miles (mostly the front). The seals just get hard with age.
The engines i've disassembled have had good cylinders and slightly worn pistons. Recently i re-ringed one (245,000 miles)(ametuer home shop mechanic) . i honed the cylinders myself and disasembled the head touching up the exhaust valves and cleaning the back sides of all valves (carbon clumps) and replaced valve stem seals.
i did not replace any bearings or pistons.
just cleaned everything up and put it back together with new front and rear main seals and cam front seal.
cost was around 175.00 (rings, gasket set and seals)
Due to an article i read online as soon as it started up i drove it hard for 30 miles. going up and down thru the gears and revving it hard. The guys theory was that the engine was already loose so just break in the rings fast.

so far i have around 7000 miles on it and its getting 34-36 mpg
if it runs this good for only one year i figure the 175.00 was worth it
i'm sure its going to go much longer than that

[takza]

Now that's the way I'd rebuild one in fairly good condition....except I'd redo the rod bearings. $175 seems a little high for those few parts though...Toyota parts?

[xirdneh]

[except I'd redo the rod bearings. $175 seems a little high for those few parts though...Toyota parts



the local parts store sells ring sets for around 50.00
the gasket sets for around 70.00
the main seals were seperate abt 12 for rear and 8 for front
i added 25.00 for misc stuff (some might not have the honing tool or valve spring compressor)

i know it is possilbe to get some of that stuff a bit cheaper online
next time i will do that

[Typrus]

So is there some sort of test for what is who?
I'm thinking about trying to let AZ let me use their compression tester. Unless my neighbor has one.

[Chris]

First thing you should do is a compression test. Compare the reading of each cylinder. Do a dry test first, then a wet test. (Be sure to have the throttle wide open during the tests.) That way you can tell if the basic condition of the engine is OK. Next would be a leak-down test. That is where you put a fitting in the spark plug hole and inject a calibrated amount of air. (The piston should be at TDC for each cylinder's test). With the gauge you can again tell the general condition of each cylinder. You would listen for air escaping from the cylinder at different places to determine the problem areas. Sound from the carb indicates a leaking intake valve...sound from the exhaust would indicate a leaking exhaust valve...sound from the PCV valve would indicate leaking past the rings into the crankcase....bubbles from the radiator would indicate a leaking head gasket into the coolant passages...and so on. These test will help determine some possible underlying problems so your not chasing your tail looking elsewhere.

Hope this helps. If you do the compression test post the results so we can see.

Chris

PS. Where are you located in CO? I'm headed down there tomorrow.

[Typrus]

Fort Collins area.

Those are both tests I planned on doing, but thanks for the better explanation on what a leak-down test was.

[Typrus]

I really hope I did the compression test wrong.
98, 96, 99, 94 if I remember right. Engine was cool, but not cold, all plugs were pulled and I had someone floor it and crank the engine. This was a "dry" test. Didn't do the wet test.
According to ALLData, Recommended is 178PSI, limit 128PSI, with a max allowable difference of.. I think it said 18PSI difference.
According to those numbers, I'm near half recommended pressures! Yet I consistantly get around 26mpg and the engine runs apparently great (except cold). The plugs were slightly cleaner than before, but still a little mucked.

If those numbers are really right, why am I not losing a quart a day? Why does the engine run and rev great? Why doesn't my exhaust smell or look odd?

What could it be? They are all very similar in pressure, but the pressure is way low. Valve clearance needs adjusting maybe? Maybe the rings are stuck? The tester doesn't work???


I am so confused >.<

[ARCHINSTL]

typrus -
Well - the readings are close - it would seem that that is good...of course, it could also be that what is affecting one is affecting all...
Can you check just a few cylinders in your "extra" motor?
Perhaps there is an easy test for the tester itself short of using on another engine (check online/tester Mfgr. site)? Borrow AZ's?
Keep us posted - also on testing the tester (I know you will)
Tom M.

[takza]

Yea...I've always heard it was better to be low...but even as far as pressures...rather than one cylinder being low....... if you had compression issues.

Check the tester?

Are you keeping track of how much oil you use?

I'd use some Seafoam/oil mix squirted into all 4 cylinders and allowed to sit overnight...then turn it over with the plugs out for 15-20 secs? See if you can free the rings up some.

If all else fails:

"For forty years I've been in the habit of adding a half quart of Rislone or Marvel Mystery Oil to the crankcase a day or two before an oil change. None of the cars I've owned have used enough oil between changes to have to be topped off. None of the cars I've owned blow blue smoke out the tailpipe on startup. Never had a lubrication related failure. I only saw the inside of one of my engines, a Ford with over 250,000 miles and it was clean as a whistle. Every auto I've owned put a lot of miles on their clocks. So.... would something like Auto_RX do any better...? or technical overkill?"

"If he wants s solvent type cleaner adn likes home brewing he might as welluse something with some more bite!! Prior to finding this site I used B-12 Chemtool. You could just as easily mix up tolune, aceatone and xylene and it would remove most hings that oil would leave behind. Toyota has used Viton and nitrile in most of it's seals that make contact with oil since about 1986.

Now with that said why would you want to use these harsh chemical or lack luster Kerosine when you can get LC,131 or Auto-Rx shiped to your door step?"

"Kev99, I've had very good luck with mopar combustion chamber cleaner (spray can) for stuck rings & bad carbon deposits. It's normally applied in the throttle body but for this it's best in the plug openings to soak for a while. Good right before an oil change since plenty will leak into the sump.

Warm it up thoroughly
pull the plugs
pull the primary
soak each cylinder
crank it over once
let sit for 20min
crank again
after ensuring liquid is gone, restore parts & start
keep it slow the first few minutes.
Your neighbors may call the EPA when they see/smell the white cloud.

I've never seen the MSDS for MCCC but I will say you don't want to breathe it. Strong stuff. Popular dealer shop item. Goes for ~$5-8 at parts counters. I like Neutra but it may be too gentle if you only want to treat once. Maybe Bob could comment on his experiences."

"I've used the Mopar product as well and it does do a good job at shaking that stuff loose- ran it a couple times on my turbo Talon, which ran absolutely pig rich. I let it sit on the piston-tops overnight though, then sucked the remaining liquid out with a hose. That's a very important step! Can't hurt, unless you a)forget to take it out of the cylinders before starting, b)forget to change your oil before starting."


"Three to four ounces of LC (Lube Control) full strength per cylinder has unstuck many rings. It has a base oil carrier so it provides lubrication as well. Remove plugs and inject LC.

After about 2 hours, just touch starter for about 1 second for about one full rev of the crank.

Let sit for at least four hours, overnight if possible.

Replace plugs and fire up engine, outside of course.

Replace oil within 500 miles.

BTW, Toulene doesn't provide any lubrication."

"One ounce of Neutra in a 1.5 qt 14 hp B&S did the trick on my lawn tractor last summer. Went from using 4 oz oil every 4-5 hrs to no oil added in 30+ hrs of operation, read just a hair under full by then. I ran the Neutra in the oil for ~2.5-3 hrs of mowing, drained hot, refilled w/BobZoil Dino-Moly SAE 30. When I told this to Tim in Texarkana, he just said,"Your rings were stuck." Well, they're not stuck now, & I know how to unstick 'em in the future! I suspect Auto-RX and Lube Control would both work well, too."

Do you have solid or hydraulic lifters? If it's an automatic or newer than '85 it should be hydraulic (somebody stop me if I'm wrong). If it's a manual trans or pre '85 they should be solid. Look for a sticker on the valve cover. if it says "Do not adjust valve clearance" the lifters are hydraulic. If they're solid, I'd try an adjustment.

If hydraulic, (and you'd rather not tear into the engine) you could try the old Kerosene trick.
2Qt. Kerosene + 3Qt. oil. Run the motor until it sounds really scarey then shut it off. Drain the oil/kerosene mix, replace the filter, then run two ot three batches of clean oil through the motor (with filter chenges).
It's time consuming but it's easier than pulling the lifters and a lot of people swear by it for cleaning out gunked up motors.

But.... My bet it that you have noisey solid lifters that need an adjustment.
Done the kerosene flush on many motors. Works to flush the crud out of them. You do it on a overnight cold engine, AND, you don't rev it up. Just let it idle, until it gets warmed up. Then drain and refill with fresh oil, new filter, maybe slap new filter on in about 500 miles. Lifters on my '82 were noisy after the reseal, but running for 30 minutes with 15W50 Synthetic Mobil 1, quieted them down. Have heard much good about using synthetic oils in older engines, mainly for this reason. Just my .02.........Tom"




"As an answer to all those that think breaking off a lot of crud does damage a friend an I did a test at local junk yard, with the help of the owner. We found a 1979 Toyota PU with a 20R 4-cylinder engine that looked like it was shot at and missed and $%^& at and hit. It smoked so bad it could be used by the Marines for beach assaults. We removed the valve cover and you could not see any detail, like a complete valve spring. the crud was both soft like tar and hard and shiny like glass. The dip stick shows a black spot on the end, but not up to the add mark.

Now here's what we did. We found several oil filters off other engines and cleaned them out with carb cleaner. Nothing but the best for our test. Then we put two quarts of 5w-30 Mobil 1 and two quarts of carb cleaner out of a 5 gal pail into the engine. We started up the engine and ran the snot out of it. It sputtered and smoked and with each passing minute, running at about 3 grand in neutral, it started running better. As the oil filter would get plugged up, we would change it and add a 50/50 mixture of Mobil 1 and carb cleaner. We reved it up and let it idle. Then we drove it around the canyon behind the junk yard, up and down the hills and never spared the horses. We beat this truck like a dog every Saturday morning for a month and each time it ran better and each time it plugged up a filter, and we unplugged it and put it back on. Then we swithched from Mobil1/carb cleaner to Mobil1/Marvel Mystrry Oil. Every one took a shot at driving it. After a couple of weeks, it got driven during the week, too. In six weeks of brutal driving we put about 1k miles on the truck. We had to replace the spark plugs twice, using NGK's both times, nothing but the best for our truck. We also cleaned the carb and pcv a couple of times and put in a new air filter and finally a new oil filter, again nothing but the best. Today the truck runs great, compression is 1=165 2=170 3=165 4=160, thats up about 10 psi per hole, with no thickners or other stuff. If breaking off crud would damage the engine, we would have seen something. We took the pan off twice, first time we scraped it out, second time it was pretty clean. Oil pressure, with a mechanical gauge is 65 psi at 3k in neutral with, finally all Mobil 1 5w-30 oil. A lot of people watched our ASTM level official test and even took turns driving the truck around. It now runs without smoking, knocking or clicking, starts right up and idles smoothly and about 800rpm, and revs like crazy without missing and it pulls the hill behind the junk yard in 4th gear lugging now (5-speed) which on the first day took a struggle in 2nd, buzzing it's brains out. Not very scientific but we had fun. The owner now used the truck for a parts truck, and finally sold it for money to someone down the street. Our testing was so much fun we are going to look for a new myth to bust."

[takza]

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