I know its kind of an out there question, especially considering the difficulties with the 4AGE alone... But how impossiblly difficult would it be to cram a 3SGTE under our hoods? Preferrably with the Celica AWD system? Is there a 20v version of the 3sGE hiding somewhere?
I guess more what I'm getting at is; what can anyone tell me about this engine?
3SGTE
3SGTE
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed
RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed
1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed
1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed
1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed
1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
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GTSSportCoupe
- Highest Ranking Member
- Posts: 1626
- Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:14 am
- Location: Victoria BC, Canada
Hey Typrus,
If you used the 1st gen celica alltrac drive train, things would be somewhat easier, as it uses a solid rear axle (as opposed to the IRS in the 2nd gen alltrac). Remember that the alltrac's engine faces 90 degreees off where the tercel engine faces. This would pose mounting challenges. The alltrac also has a wider wheel base, and of course the length of the wheel base will be different. This would mean putting large fender flares on the tercel, and lengthening the rear axle. Alltracs are notoriously expensive to maintain, so finding a mint drivetrain that doesn't need lots of work (espec from 88-89 - 1st gen alltrac) would be difficult.
All that said, I have no doubt it could be done. Custom mounts from the drive train would be needed from bumper to bumper. Chassis strengthening would need to be done (roll cage might do it?). Would be an insane amount of work, but definitely do-able.
If you like the idea of a 3sgte, and want an awd sleeper, your best bet is to buy a 4wd camry. The Camry 4wd came with a 5sfe or 3sfe (i forget) which is of the same family as a 3sgte (both 's' engines). The 5sfe can be swaped for the 3sgte. I have seen this done. These cars can be really cool. Like most of Toyota's 4wd systems in their cars though, they are not really made to handle tons of power, so reliability might be a problem.
The 3sgte is an engine with massive potential, and has been used by Toyota in it's racing. The Pike's Peak Celica (currently holds the record) used a 3sgte. GT500 Supras have used the 3sgte (in place of the 2jzgte!!). The 3sgte came in all three generations of Celica Alltrac Turbos, in the second generation MR2, and in the Caldina GT4. The 3sgte was one of a few popular 2.0l turbo engines to come out in the late 80's early 90's from Japan: the Nissan SR20DET, and the Mitsubishi 4G63 were also popular 2.0l engines, all with similar potential.
There have been about 4-5 version of the 3sgte to be produced over the years...and I believe it is still being produced for the Caldina in Japan.
There is no 20v 3sgte or 3sge. Although, they have built a 3sge called the 'Beams 3sge'. This engine came in the Toyota Altezza in Japan. I believe it made over 200hp in it's NA form! There have been a few early versions of the 3sge to come to north america in the early fwd celicas. They then dropped the 3sge in favour of the 5sfe (only in north america), because we tend to prefer a torquey engine in north america. The 5sfe is a stroked 3sge, but with a economy head (provides best flow at low rpms). I believe that there was also a 3sfe put into some camrys, and maybe some other cars.
Let me know if you want to know any more, or want some links. If you look at some of the alltrac forums, you can find specs on the different 3sgte engine revisions.
If you used the 1st gen celica alltrac drive train, things would be somewhat easier, as it uses a solid rear axle (as opposed to the IRS in the 2nd gen alltrac). Remember that the alltrac's engine faces 90 degreees off where the tercel engine faces. This would pose mounting challenges. The alltrac also has a wider wheel base, and of course the length of the wheel base will be different. This would mean putting large fender flares on the tercel, and lengthening the rear axle. Alltracs are notoriously expensive to maintain, so finding a mint drivetrain that doesn't need lots of work (espec from 88-89 - 1st gen alltrac) would be difficult.
All that said, I have no doubt it could be done. Custom mounts from the drive train would be needed from bumper to bumper. Chassis strengthening would need to be done (roll cage might do it?). Would be an insane amount of work, but definitely do-able.
If you like the idea of a 3sgte, and want an awd sleeper, your best bet is to buy a 4wd camry. The Camry 4wd came with a 5sfe or 3sfe (i forget) which is of the same family as a 3sgte (both 's' engines). The 5sfe can be swaped for the 3sgte. I have seen this done. These cars can be really cool. Like most of Toyota's 4wd systems in their cars though, they are not really made to handle tons of power, so reliability might be a problem.
The 3sgte is an engine with massive potential, and has been used by Toyota in it's racing. The Pike's Peak Celica (currently holds the record) used a 3sgte. GT500 Supras have used the 3sgte (in place of the 2jzgte!!). The 3sgte came in all three generations of Celica Alltrac Turbos, in the second generation MR2, and in the Caldina GT4. The 3sgte was one of a few popular 2.0l turbo engines to come out in the late 80's early 90's from Japan: the Nissan SR20DET, and the Mitsubishi 4G63 were also popular 2.0l engines, all with similar potential.
There have been about 4-5 version of the 3sgte to be produced over the years...and I believe it is still being produced for the Caldina in Japan.
There is no 20v 3sgte or 3sge. Although, they have built a 3sge called the 'Beams 3sge'. This engine came in the Toyota Altezza in Japan. I believe it made over 200hp in it's NA form! There have been a few early versions of the 3sge to come to north america in the early fwd celicas. They then dropped the 3sge in favour of the 5sfe (only in north america), because we tend to prefer a torquey engine in north america. The 5sfe is a stroked 3sge, but with a economy head (provides best flow at low rpms). I believe that there was also a 3sfe put into some camrys, and maybe some other cars.
Let me know if you want to know any more, or want some links. If you look at some of the alltrac forums, you can find specs on the different 3sgte engine revisions.
Current:
91 LJ78 Landcruiser EX5
95 A32 Maxima SE
Former:
87 AW11 MR2 Smallport 4AGZE
93 Taurus SHO ATX
86 AL25 SR5 6spd 4wd
90 AE92 GTS
82 KP61 SR5
85 MX73
87 AE86 GTS 4AGZE
85 AE86 GTS
83 AL21
91 LJ78 Landcruiser EX5
95 A32 Maxima SE
Former:
87 AW11 MR2 Smallport 4AGZE
93 Taurus SHO ATX
86 AL25 SR5 6spd 4wd
90 AE92 GTS
82 KP61 SR5
85 MX73
87 AE86 GTS 4AGZE
85 AE86 GTS
83 AL21
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20vtercel
- Top Notch Member
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:34 am
- Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Yes it is actually possible to fit a 3sge into our cars by dimensions.
the 3sge presents several problems tho:
1) it sits a bad angle in stock form. with the "g" head, it will not clear the hood. you will have to put a new pan on with a new sump (which is aftermarket made for this reason).
2) it is a transverse setup. Not a problem, just make mounts. However, Problem #1 still exists. You can make it conventional and it will fit by dimensions, and yes #1 still presents a problem. Now, RWD setup is accomodated by using a custom bellhousing (purchasable from Australia) and mating it to a t50 out of a supra.
3) it's heavier than a 3/4A...understear can be a problem
4) its a lot of work to make it fit to be a realistic swap.
It has been done in a 95 tercel. of course it was modified to 600+ hp and still fwd.
if you use All-trac drivetrain, i don't see why you have to modify anything except use a different rear say out of a 79-85 rx-7. The front axles can be used from a camry and shortened or the same with the celica's. Its brobably better to get new ones that can withstand the torque.
there is more but...it's start
the 3sge presents several problems tho:
1) it sits a bad angle in stock form. with the "g" head, it will not clear the hood. you will have to put a new pan on with a new sump (which is aftermarket made for this reason).
2) it is a transverse setup. Not a problem, just make mounts. However, Problem #1 still exists. You can make it conventional and it will fit by dimensions, and yes #1 still presents a problem. Now, RWD setup is accomodated by using a custom bellhousing (purchasable from Australia) and mating it to a t50 out of a supra.
3) it's heavier than a 3/4A...understear can be a problem
4) its a lot of work to make it fit to be a realistic swap.
It has been done in a 95 tercel. of course it was modified to 600+ hp and still fwd.
if you use All-trac drivetrain, i don't see why you have to modify anything except use a different rear say out of a 79-85 rx-7. The front axles can be used from a camry and shortened or the same with the celica's. Its brobably better to get new ones that can withstand the torque.
there is more but...it's start
'84 Tercel HB, 202hp Turbocharged 20v, 4WD, Lowered, Custom exhaust, Mangles Rims with Avid V4 Rubber! Hola!!