Help !! Again !!

MootsMan · Post by **MootsMan** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:33 pm

Well, for a week now, I've had oil blowing up into the air filter. I replaced the PCV valve, even though I had just installed one back in July. Put in a different HIC valve, just in case that might have been causing some issue. Still no change. Consulted with two mechanics today, and one said that possibly something was blocking the drainage of the oil out of the head, allowing it to collect under the valve cover. Another said it sounded like a valve going bad. I've always heard the term "burnt valve" , and he seems to think that this may be my problem. Anyway, I need any help on a diagnosis or advice on how to proceed to fix this thing. Gas mileage has dropped about 3-4 mpg, and my oil light is coming on sporadically at low idle, and the car dies occasionally when coming to a stop. The car usually idles ok, but I am getting quite a bit of spark knock ( pinging) under heavier acceleration. Needless to say, the exterior of the carburetor and the adjacent vacuum hoses are a MESS now. I will have to admit that I am getting pissed about the problems I'm having... ...seems like one thing will get reparied and it'll be fine for about 3 weeks, then something else will rear it's ugly head. If it is the valve issue, I'm going to think seriously about a complete engine swap instead of a rebuild. Any suggestions ?

xirdneh · Post by **xirdneh** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:54 am

MootsMan wrote: Well, for a week now, I've had oil blowing up into the air filter. I replaced the PCV valve, even though I had just installed one back in July. Put in a different HIC valve, just in case that might have been causing some issue. Still no change. Consulted with two mechanics today, and one said that possibly something was blocking the drainage of the oil out of the head, allowing it to collect under the valve cover. Another said it sounded like a valve going bad. I've always heard the term "burnt valve" , and he seems to think that this may

i wish i could tell you what is wrong but it could be many things. i recently switched an engine and forgot to drain the oil (thought i had done it) . i added 3 .5 more quarts (total of seven ) and had problems like you describe. thats why i suggested checking for high oil level.
while i was trying to solve this problem i asked several mechanics and searched the net for clues. was told excessive blow-by (past the piston rings) could cause this along with clogged oil return passages between head and crankcase. the pcv valve was brought up too.
i have had several engines with burnt valves (none were tercels) and never had this problem.
one thing i've learned the hard way is that i tend to look at the most complicated answers to car problems first. most of the time the simplest answers are the correct ones.

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:05 am

MootsMan wrote: Well, for a week now, I've had oil blowing up into the air filter. I replaced the PCV valve, even though I had just installed one back in July. Put in a different HIC valve, just in case that might have been causing some issue. Still no change. Consulted with two mechanics today, and one said that possibly something was blocking the drainage of the oil out of the head, allowing it to collect under the valve cover. Another said it sounded like a valve going bad. I've always heard the term "burnt valve" , and he seems to think that this may be my problem. Anyway, I need any help on a diagnosis or advice on how to proceed to fix this thing. Gas mileage has dropped about 3-4 mpg, and my oil light is coming on sporadically at low idle, and the car dies occasionally when coming to a stop. The car usually idles ok, but I am getting quite a bit of spark knock ( pinging) under heavier acceleration. Needless to say, the exterior of the carburetor and the adjacent vacuum hoses are a MESS now. I will have to admit that I am getting pissed about the problems I'm having... ...seems like one thing will get reparied and it'll be fine for about 3 weeks, then something else will rear it's ugly head. If it is the valve issue, I'm going to think seriously about a complete engine swap instead of a rebuild. Any suggestions ?

Man, that sucks! Buy a compression tester and see how the compression of your engine looks. This will tell you what sort of shape it is in, and whether one of your valves is burnt or not. I've got more advice for you too, which I'll PM you with.

Eatpants · Post by **Eatpants** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:36 pm

this is happening to my dads "freebie" (an 82 mercury lynx)

we bought a compression tester but are too lazy to get on it, when he takes out the dipstick oil shoots up! wheeee!

pcv valve is not the answer we found out!!

i would venture a guess that it probably needs new rings

pm me that info too please 3AC
thanks!

MootsMan · Post by **MootsMan** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:50 pm

Looks like it's gonna be a ring job for the ol' 3AC if I decide not to swap engines. I took the oil filler cap off yesterday, after I let the engine idle and warm up for about 5minutes.....lots of pressure coming out, throwing oil up.

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:12 am

There is a term for this its called "blow-by"

The rings are shot. If you adjusted the valves you probably made the compression that much better for the rings to show their condition.

xirdneh · Post by **xirdneh** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:00 am

MootsMan wrote: Looks like it's gonna be a ring job for the ol' 3AC if I decide

replacing the engine with a used one is the cheapest way to go.
it can be good if you know the engines history.
re-ringing the cheap way
as follows

i tried an experiment recently where i did all the work myself
but kept things to a minimum.
the cost was the price of rings (abt 50.oo) and gaskets/seals (abt 100.00)
i honed the cylinders with the stone type of hone. got to keep rpm's up or it chatters.
i already had this tool so i did not include it in cost
i cleaned everything (the most tedious part)
replaced valve stem seals (lightly lapped exhaust valves)
did not replace any bearings
i broke it in by driving it hard for 30 miles (read about this method on-line)
so far i have almost 4000 miles on it
seems to be doing just fine
time will tell
if i get one year out of it it will have been worth it

takza · Post by **takza** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:51 am

One thing you might have forgotten is the ridge at the top of the cylinder...if you put in new rings...the top one can break if the ridge is high enough.

I doubt if the rings would go bad all of a sudden....I think it's something else.

xirdneh · Post by **xirdneh** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:32 am

takza wrote: One thing you might have forgotten is the ridge at the top of the cylinder...if you put in new rings...the top one can break if the ridge is high enough.

the first two engines i redid did not have a ridge. (both had over 200K)
seems the cylinders are very hard.
the pistons do wear out and crack. (causing a metallic knock until engine is warm)
the cheap redo engine (also over 200K) did have a slight ridge which i carefully removed with emory paper.
one should replace the pistons but they are 50.00 apiece plus i would have to pay someone to remove and reattach to the rods.

MootsMan · Post by **MootsMan** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:56 pm

I've never gone into the guts of an engine to rebuild one. What is the ridge you're talking about ?? around the top of the cylinders ??? I'm just trying to get educated.

I'm not sure what is going on with this thing. It's not starting as easily as it was a couple of weeks ago, maybe it's just my imagination. Gas mileage is hanging right around 28-29MPG, and I was getting in the 30-32 range for a while. As I stated earlier, I did get some pressure when I removed the oil filler cap. However, there isn't as much oil coming up into the air breather assembly as there was last week. It looks like to me that once it starts blowing by the rings that it would be consistent in the amount that is coming by, am I right ??

I wish I had a spare block that I could practice on rebuilding, taking my time to make sure everything was right and learning how to do it in the process. Jasper wants $1679 + tax for a rebuilt 3AC, but you do get a 3yr, 75K mile warranty with that. Still, that's a lot of $$$ to put into a 20yr old car with some rust on the body.

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:08 am

If you look but it is easier to feel the top of the cylinder you should feel a ridge or lip. This spot is where there is no physical contact between the piston ring and the cylinder wall.

It is quite common for blow-by to develop after a valve job. Tighter valves will improve compression and the next weakest link will be revealed.

I would not worry about the oil too much. If you are a blue smoker I would be concerned.

A simple solution, though temporary, is to switch to a heavier grade of oil.

takza · Post by **takza** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:56 am

When I was messing with water injection...I ended up putting around 3 pints of water thru the intake over 50 miles. Result? Got 9K per quart for that oil change...not the usual 5K. Next oil change it went back to 5K. Did have synth oil in it and some MMOil in the gas.

If it were my car...I'd use the water/ATF 8 to 1 carbon clean OR Seafoam to clean the carbon...then flush the oil with a pint of kerosene for 15 mins at idle...then use about 3 oz acetone per 10 gallons to keep the carbon away. I'd also use synth oil.

OR....

"As an answer to all those that think breaking off a lot of crud does damage a friend an I did a test at local junk yard, with the help of the owner. We found a 1979 Toyota PU with a 20R 4-cylinder engine that looked like it was shot at and missed and $%^& at and hit. It smoked so bad it could be used by the Marines for beach assaults. We removed the valve cover and you could not see any detail, like a complete valve spring. the crud was both soft like tar and hard and shiny like glass. The dip stick shows a black spot on the end, but not up to the add mark.

Now here's what we did. We found several oil filters off other engines and cleaned them out with carb cleaner. Nothing but the best for our test. Then we put two quarts of 5w-30 Mobil 1 and two quarts of carb cleaner out of a 5 gal pail into the engine. We started up the engine and ran the snot out of it. It sputtered and smoked and with each passing minute, running at about 3 grand in neutral, it started running better. As the oil filter would get plugged up, we would change it and add a 50/50 mixture of Mobil 1 and carb cleaner. We reved it up and let it idle. Then we drove it around the canyon behind the junk yard, up and down the hills and never spared the horses. We beat this truck like a dog every Saturday morning for a month and each time it ran better and each time it plugged up a filter, and we unplugged it and put it back on. Then we swithched from Mobil1/carb cleaner to Mobil1/Marvel Mystrry Oil. Every one took a shot at driving it. After a couple of weeks, it got driven during the week, too. In six weeks of brutal driving we put about 1k miles on the truck. We had to replace the spark plugs twice, using NGK's both times, nothing but the best for our truck. We also cleaned the carb and pcv a couple of times and put in a new air filter and finally a new oil filter, again nothing but the best. Today the truck runs great, compression is 1=165 2=170 3=165 4=160, thats up about 10 psi per hole, with no thickners or other stuff. If breaking off crud would damage the engine, we would have seen something. We took the pan off twice, first time we scraped it out, second time it was pretty clean. Oil pressure, with a mechanical gauge is 65 psi at 3k in neutral with, finally all Mobil 1 5w-30 oil. A lot of people watched our ASTM level official test and even took turns driving the truck around. It now runs without smoking, knocking or clicking, starts right up and idles smoothly and about 800rpm, and revs like crazy without missing and it pulls the hill behind the junk yard in 4th gear lugging now (5-speed) which on the first day took a struggle in 2nd, buzzing it's brains out. Not very scientific but we had fun. The owner now used the truck for a parts truck, and finally sold it for money to someone down the street. Our testing was so much fun we are going to look for a new myth to bust."

Post by **ARCHINSTL** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:12 pm

This is a little off the topic, but I can vouch for the quality of the Jasper remanufactured engines. I had one installed in my '88 Dodge (Mitsu) pickup two years ago, and the thing is fantastic. Jasper really cares about the product, as I had a number of conversations with a customer service rep, as the installer did not follow Jasper's recommendations as literal as it wanted, and I was concerned about the warranty.
The installer did not install the recommended new motor/transmission mounts, which seemed like a no-brainer to me, as the engine was already out, and would have been a revenue-source about which I would not complained - just made sense. It also did not install new vac hoses, of which there are a plethora - same with the O2 sensor. these are just common-sense replacements.
My next-door neighbor also used a Jasper/Corvette engine in his boat and was quite happy.
They are pricey, but well done.
Tom M.