Dang Straight

[Petros]

The permafrost is melting now. This isn't the first time but it is the first in modern times and the rate is staggering. .

Yes it is, but what is the cause? Natural cycles, or something else? The earth has been both much colder in the past, and much warmer. The causal link is the issue, not that the climate changes.

see below:

Experts question theory on global warming
(Himalayan glaciers not shrinking)


New Delhi - 11 Feb 07 - Some glacial experts have questioned the alarmists theory on global warming leading to shrinkage of Himalayan glaciers. VK Raina, a leading glaciologist and former ADG of GSI is one among them.

He feels that the research on Indian glaciers is negligible. Nothing but the remote sensing data forms the basis of these alarmists observations and not on-the-spot research.

Raina told the Hindustan Times that out of 9,575 glaciers in India, research has been conducted only on about 50. Nearly 200 years data has shown that nothing abnormal has occurred in any of these glaciers.

The issue of glacial retreat is being sensationalised by a few individuals, the septuagenarian Raina claimed.

However, Dr RK Pachouri, Chairman, Inter-Governmental Panel of Climatic Change said it’s recently released fourth assessment report has recorded increased glacier retreat since the 1980s.

But Raina, who has been associated with the research and data collection in over 25 glaciers in India and abroad, debunked the theory that Gangotri glacier is retreating alarmingly.

Maintaining that the glaciers are undergoing natural changes witnessed periodically, he said recent studies in the Gangotri and Zanskar areas (Drung- Drung, Kagriz glaciers) have not shown any evidence of major retreat.

"Claims of global warming causing glacial melt in the Himalayas are based on wrong assumptions," said Raina, a trained mountaineer and skiing expert.

Nobody knows what is happening. Whatever is being flaunted about the under surface activity of the glaciers is merely presumptions, he claimed.

His views were echoed by Dr RK Ganjoo, Director, Regional Centre for Field Operations and Research on Himalayan Glaciology, who is supervising study of glaciers in Ladakh region including one in the Siachen area. He also maintained that nothing abnormal has been found in any of the Himalyan glaciers studied so far by him.

Another leading geologist MN Koul of Jammu University, who is actively engaged in studying glacier dynamics in J&K and Himachal holds similar views. Referring to his research on Kol glacier ( Paddar, J&K) and Naradu (HP), he said both the glaciers have not changed much in the past two decades.

See full article by Anil Anand at:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1925164,0008.htm


Glaciers Growing in France and Switzerland
.
28 Jun 07 – This news comes from a recent article in the Journal of Geophysical Research entitled "Very high-elevation Mont Blanc glaciated areas not affected by the 20th century climate change."

The research was conducted by six scientists from leading agencies and departments in France and Switzerland that deal with hydrology and glaciology. The research was funded by Observatoire des Sciences de l’Univers de Grenoble (OSUG), the European Programs ALPCLIM and CARBOSOL, and by the city of Chamonix Mont-Blanc.

Vincent et al. collected a variety of datasets that could help them understand how the high-elevation glaciers of Mont Blanc were impacted by variations and trends in climate. Among other findings, they found that the mass balance of the glaciers is strongly controlled by precipitation, not temperature.

Vincent et al. state "The most striking features of these figures are the small thickness changes observed over the 20th century. For both areas, thickness variations do not exceed ±15 m. The average changes are +2.6 m at Dôme du Goûter (please note that this glacier is growing) and -0.3 m (-12 inches) at Mont Blanc.

"Considering the uncertainty interval, i.e., ±5 m, it can be concluded that no significant thickness change is detectable over most of these areas". "All these results suggest that the SMBDôme du Goûter and Mont Blanc did not experience any significant changes over the 20th century."

"Geodetic measurements carried out in 1905 and 2005 on the highest ice fields of the Mont Blanc range indicate small thickness changes and show that these very high-elevation glaciated areas have not been significantly affected by climate change over the last 100 years."

"In any case, this study reveals that the very high-elevation ice fields in the Mont Blanc area have not been affected by the climate warming.

"The 20th century climate warming affected the atmospheric temperature in the Alps by +1EC. However this change did not significantly affect the ice deformation rate in the high-altitude ice fields since the ice temperature remains far below the melting point and therefore keeping the glacier frozen to its bed."

[ that temperature increase of 1°C occurred from 1800 to 1930, and
has been declining since then.]

[From weather stations in the Alps, and in the Nordic
countries, we find the temperature decline since 1930
is also 1°C. ]
(See http://www.iceagenow.com/Nisqually_Glacier.htm)

See entire article by Noel Sheppard
http://newsbusters.org/node/13798

.
Manipulation of public perceptions
By Dr. Tim Ball
While the media raised alarms over Arctic ice melt, they did not report
that Antarctic winter sea ice extent was the greatest on record.
_____________________________ 
.

4 Dec 07 - Most people know very little about the natural world and how it works. This lack of knowledge is easily exploited and coupled with fear makes it an even more powerful manipulative tool.

Arctic ice conditions are a perfect example. In 2005 we heard that an area of Arctic ice the size Texas melted more than in 2004. Horrors! Catastrophe! The polar bears will be dead very soon. But what is the reality? Well this melt is well within natural variability and a very small portion of the total annual melt. Every single summer approximately 10 million square kilometers of ice melts in about 3 months. This is an area equal to the United States.

Texas is approximately 681,089 square kilometers or 6.8% of the total land area. Suddenly it is not so dramatic. The same scare technique was used in the 1970s. We were told, "The ice cover in the Northern Hemisphere increased by 12 percent in 1971 - an increase equal to the combined are of England, Italy, and France. This added ice has remained."

While the media raised alarms over Arctic ice melt, they did not report that Antarctic winter sea ice extent was the greatest on record.

Of course, all this ice is in the water, so when it melts sea level doesn’t change. So the ice is not disappearing. Annual melt and refreeze is large, and current situations are well within normal numbers.

The pattern this year illustrates the cycle.
See ice-extent maps: http://www.ilovemycarbondioxide.com/Arctic.html

[takza]

I go here for some "factual" info:

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/

We live in a COTTON CANDY world....EVERYTHING is SPUN.

I think we should go with the "best available science"...not with people who have political/idealogical agendas and who will cheat and lie every chance they get tp further their foolishness. After all...it's everyone's future we're talking about here.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/sc ... ghts1.html

[takza]

First it's going to get warm...then it's going to get cold?

http://www.spaceandscience.net/id16.html

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006 ... grange.htm

[Petros]

So tell me Takza, you think the IPCC is not politically motivated and this august UN panel never cheats and lies?

I did examine the IPCC site, but one thing not noted on the web site you referenced was that of the 2400 scientists listed on site, 600 plus have resigned in protest from the IPCC. They all signed an open protest letter complaining that their data was misused by the IPCC and they do not support the IPCC conclutions (is that what you would call a concensus?). Many more likely have just kept quite because of fear of losing their funding. Which is exactly the issue, this "science" is not exactly objective their research money is at risk.

For example the summary lists the following as evidence of Global warming:

• Storms with heavy precipitation have increased in frequency over most land areas. Between 1900 and 2005, long-term trends show significantly increased precipitation in eastern parts of North and South America, northern Europe, and northern and central Asia.
• Between 1900 and 2005, the Sahel (the boundary zone between the Sahara desert and more fertile regions of Africa to the south), the Mediterranean, southern Africa, and parts of southern Asia have become drier, adding stress to water resources in these regions.

So how is this evidence of Global warming? And what is the causal link with human activity and CO2 output?

If you really went to this site to get your science, why did this not jump out at you as inclusive?

How please answer this:

Reports of Record Arctic Ice Melt Disgracefully Ignore History

9 Sep 07 - In the past couple of days, the media have reported "grim" melting of ice in the Arctic while disgracefully ignoring the history of the region prior to 1979 and explorations of the area as far back as 1903.

Most press outlets conveniently ignored a crucial element of the NOAA study.

An August 28 National Post article explained: "The record melting of the passage comes two weeks after the NSIDC and two other ice-monitoring agencies in the U.S. and Japan declared that the Arctic Ocean ice cover has shrunk to its smallest size since regular satellite imaging of the polar cap began in 1979."

"[A]nalysts at the Canadian Ice Service and the U.S. National Ice Center confirm that the passage is almost completely clear and that the region is more open than it has ever been since the advent of routine monitoring in 1972."

Get the picture? Claims of "grim consequences" and "record low" ice levels are based on a satellite record which began in 1979, and routine monitoring starting in 1972.

"How can anyone make a claim with a straight face that ice conditions in the Arctic are either historically low or grim when we've only been monitoring these levels for the last 35 years? Is everything that happened in this region - in thousands of millennia since the Big Bang occurred - totally irrelevant? "

"Such is especially the case given the history of successful sea-based explorations of the Arctic dating back as far as 1903."

Roald Amundsen, a Norwegian explorer, successfully navigated the Northwest Passage on August 26, 1905. (Meaning that this Passage was clear enough of ice for a wooden sailboat, with a crew of seven, to successfully navigate it more than 100 years ago.)

This Passage was also conquered several times in the 1940s. The St. Roch - built for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Force to serve as a supply ship - navigated the Northwest Passage in 1942, the second ship to make the passage, and the first to travel the passage from west to east. In 1944, St. Roch returned to Vancouver via the more northerly route of the Northwest Passage, making her run in 86 days. The epic voyages of St. Roch demonstrated Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic during the difficult wartime years, and extended Canadian control over its vast northern territories.

"When you consider that serious monitoring of Arctic ice levels only started in 1972, and that explorers successfully navigated these seas in relatively archaic ships 60 and 100 years ago, how can anybody honestly claim that today's conditions in this region are in any way unprecedented, historic, or grim?

"Sadly, this is the disingenuousness we see from today's press which continually make hysterical historical claims that intentionally ignore historical facts. How disgraceful."



No Global Warming in Antarctica Says head of Polar Meteorology Group at Byrd Polar Research Center
.
15 Sep 07 - "Antarctica - a vast territory whose sea-ice growth in winter effectively doubles its size to envelop an area three times that of Canada...

"Not until 1998, with the advent of new technologies and improved scientific understanding, did human knowledge "allow the question of the global relevance of Antarctica to be explored in detail for the first time," stated David Bromwich of the Byrd Polar Research Center at Ohio State University. A decade ago, Dr. Bromwich was embarking on a major research project for the National Science Foundation to begin to understand this frozen continent, which is the primary heat sink in the global climate system, and "plays a central role in global climate variability and change."

"As Dr. Bromwich reported earlier this year at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science at San Francisco, "It's hard to see a global-warming signal from the mainland of Antarctica right now."

"Dr. Bromwich found that the global models that the IPCC relies on are at odds with his own findings. Antarctica's temperatures during the late 20th century did not climb as global climate models predicted.

"We're looking for a small signal that represents the impact of human activity and it is hard to find it at the moment." "... until the global models get the polar regions right, they won't get the global climate right either."

David Bromwich is head of the Polar Meteorology Group of the Byrd Polar Research Center and Professor in the Atmospheric Sciences Program at the Department of Geography of Ohio State University. He is president of the International Commission on Polar Meteorology, the chair of the Polar DAAC Advisory Group, a member of the Arctic Climate System Study Working Group on Reanalysis, and a past member of the National Academy of Sciences, Committee on Geophysical and Environmental Data. The author or co-author of numerous papers, he received his PhD in meteorology from the University of Wisconsin, Madison, in 1979.

See entire article by Lawrence Solomon, entitled
"You still need your parka in Antarctica"
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/fina ... dee5378809

Greenland icecap growing thicker
- 20 Oct 2005 - Greenland 's ice-cap has thickened slightly in recent
years despite wide predictions of a thaw, scientists said today. Satellite
measurements show that more snowfall is thickening the ice-cap,
especially at high altitudes, according to the report in the journal Science.

"The overall ice thickness changes are ... approximately plus 5 cms
(1.9 inches) a year or 54 cms (21.26 inches) over 11 years," according
to the experts at Norwegian, Russian and U.S. institutes led by Ola
Johannessen at the Mohn Sverdrup center for Global Ocean Studies
and Operational Oceanography in Norway.

The deception continues. See more of this article at
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArtic ... =GREENLAND
See also: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/10 ... index.html

[takza]

There are points to be made on "both" sides and I'm fairly sure I'm not capable of discerning the "real truth" in the matter.

I will say that funding usually derives from "sponsors" which have a tendency to "direct" the research to some extent.

If some are resigning...it's possible that they are doing so because they are on the "wrong" side of the issues?

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/sc ... tions.html

[Petros]

Or these scientists are resigning in protest because they do not want to participate in scientific fraud, nor want their work to be used for it. This is what they stated, and there is no reason to doubt that.

Some of the sicentists have even demanded their names and their work be removed from the study. The IPCC has not only not removed the names, they have completely ignored the allegations, clearly it is not in their interest to be accountable for their conclusions.

Are you not aware of the long history of fraud, dishonesty, criminal activity and corruption in the UN? Only recently their scientists were forced to admit they fabricated data by greatly exaggerating the number of AIDS victims in Africa to get more funding. And much of that funding did not even go to the needy, but into the pockets of 3rd world dictators and despots.

United Nations admits to having exaggerated statistics about AIDS in the world

New York, Nov 23, 2007 / 10:45 am (CNA).- After using exaggerated statistics not in accord with reality, the United Nations Program for the fight against AIDS (UNAIDS) has finally admitted to having distorting and inflating data.

According to a report on LifeSiteNews.com, this strategy was seen to “benefit the massive AIDS industry's constant demands for large funds. Last Tuesday, UNAIDS presented its annual report, in which it “admitted the world body has sharply reduced its estimates of the global HIV/AIDS pandemic because of strong evidence from AIDS scientists that the agency's methods for measuring and predicting the course of the epidemic were flawed.â€

[takza]

What I do see is obvious environmental degradation while some religious and business elements continue to promote overpopulation in the face of this AND scarcer resources.

Any "group" can have a political/idealogical agenda. Such as the neocon agenda. The "oil company" agenda. The military/industrial agenda.

http://www.sensiblepriorities.org/budget_analysis.php



http://benfrank.net/patriots/news/natio ... _trillions

"More money for the Pentagon, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends.

"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted.

$2.3 trillion — that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America. To understand how the Pentagon can lose track of trillions, consider the case of one military accountant who tried to find out what happened to a mere $300 million."

and so on....and on...and on....

War is profitable...so is privatizing everything under the sun and disaster capitalism.

Due to global warming, overpopulation, and peak energy/water...etc...there will be MANY MANY new excuses for more wars.

Do you have a choice?

[splatterdog]

On the lighter side of the christmas clash....

Many a december ago I saw the funniest facial expression when my boss had innocently enough said "merry christmas" to a cab driving customer named Abdullah.