Hesitation/poor performance under load

MootsMan · Post by **MootsMan** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:13 pm

Well, guys, another question from the inexperienced mechanic here.

A quick chronology of my recent repairs:

Catalytic converter plugged up.....had it removed, exhaust piped straight back.
Replaced Vacuum advance and worked on centrifigal advance.....finally got the car running good and gas mileage improved.
About two weeks later, the timing belt broke. Decided to do this repair myself as I couldn't really afford to pay somebody else $300-400 to do it . Got the new belt on, finally got the timing right, had it running great, good fuel economy (32MPG)
While I had it down, I replaced both the crankshaft and camshaft oil seals.
Another 2-3 weeks, and I have a massive oil leak. Tear down the front again, find the camshaft seal leaking badly. Replace it, get the car back together, then on the first trip out notice that it's pinging more than usual, and totally loses power under a load....either hard acceleration or climbing a hill. Camshaft seal still leaking, tear it down again, and find that I didnt' get it installed good, so I put another one in, and get a good installation this time. No oil leaks from this part of the engine. Get the car back together...make SURE that the timing is set right. Car is still doing the same thing. Could this be something in the distributor causing these symptoms ?? It's very annoying to step on the accelerator getting on the freeway, and the car basically won't accelerate any at all. You can slowly get up to speed, by somewhat "feathering" the gas pedal, but put it under any kind of load, and no dice. Likewise, going up hill, when the engine is under load, it does the same thing......no power, hesitation, etc, etc.

I did just replace the TVSV, since I broke the one that was on it during my last installation of the seal. However, it hasnt' affected the problem any at all.

I'm going out now to re-check all the vacuum lines, although I'm reasonably sure nothing has come loose.

Any ideas or help , as always, is greatly appreciated !! MM

nofunrobsr5 · Post by **nofunrobsr5** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 12:19 am

I had a simmilar problem with my old tercel, and I changing the pcv valve helped a bit. Cheap five dollar part - YAY! The car had so many other problems though that I'm not certatin that was the real problem - exhaust manifold leaking into the engine compartment so that the car was breathing it's own exhaust was the start of the end for her.

I'm no mechanic either, but good luck!

- NoFunRob

xirdneh · Post by **xirdneh** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:52 am

MootsMan wrote: Well, guys, another question from the inexperienced mechanic here.

I did just replace the TVSV, since I broke the one that was on it during my last installation of the seal. However, it hasnt' affected the problem any at all.

I'm going out now to re-check all the vacuum lines, although I'm reasonably sure nothing has come loose.

Any ideas or help , as always, is greatly appreciated !! MM

i would look for a vacuum leak first or a switched vaccuum hose
check for loose nuts to the egr valve and carb base
also for holes in vacuum lines

spraying something that burns near a vacuum leak will cause the engine
rpm to increase. i've used some types of carb and brake cleaners for this. the leak area sucks it into the engine, increasing the fuel supply for a short time.
note that spraying near the throttle shaft (where it enters the carb in both sides) will increase the rpm, this is normal.
also note this is probably not the safest thing to do.

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:32 am

Hey Moots,

Strange issues... I assume you were able to check the ignition timing with a timing light to ensure it is definitely 100% correct?? I don't think ignition timing issues alone would cause so serious a problem with your engine (unless your base timing was WAY off).

Are you SURE that you lined up your Cam timing right? You need #1 piston at top dead centre with your crank at 0 degrees. Then line up your cam gear to the little notch. It sounds to me like this is the issue. Maybe its out a few teeth on the belt?

Run through the timing belt proceedure in the pdf manual and make sure you lined up the mechanical timing right.

You can also watch your ignition timing with a timing light when you rev your engine to make sure it advances and changes with rpm.

MootsMan · Post by **MootsMan** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:27 am

I'm 98.9%certain that I got everything lined up correctly. I followed the manual exactly, even to the point of rotating the crankshaft twice, and then made sure everything was lined up correctly. I have checked all the vacuum lines, and nothing is loose....at least nothing that I've seen.

What do you mean by the crank at 0 degrees ?? is that where the marks on the timing belt gear line up with the mark on the block ?? and the camshaft, how exactly do you determine that #1 is at TDC ?? I think I've done all this correctly, but maybe I just don't know what I'm doing.

I am not very familiar with how to use the timing light. I've borrowed one from my neighbor, and I know how to hook it up. What exactly am I looking for ?? Is it the marks on the crankshaft pulley ?? Where exactly should they be at idle ?? at fast throttle ?? I'm getting pretty quick at taking down the front of the engine now..

....so if I have to go back in and re-adjust, it wont' be such a big deal.

One of the bolts that holds the distributor cap had broken some time back, so last Saturday evening I took on the project of replacing that. Well, now after doing that, my car idles at 2000RPM, and I am getting some dieseling when I cut it off.....also still getting the hesitation and poor performance under load and acceleration.

I'm definitely baffled and puzzled.....or maybe dazed and confused is a better description.. :blink: :wacko:

Thanks for the suggestions. Any more will be greatly appreciated. I'm thinking one more attempt on my part is all that's left in me before paying somebody to hopefully fix the problem.

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:17 pm

OK, if you followed the manual perfectly in lining up the crank/pulley, cam/pulley, and re-inserting the distributor with the gear lined up correctly, than you are off to a good start. Lets assume your mechanical timing is correct.

You definitely need to sort out your ignition timing. I don't think it is your advance that is the issue, it is your base timing that is WAY off.

You HAVE to use the timing light to sort out your ignition timing issues. Put your car in neutral and turn the crank pulley by hand or with a wrench until you can see the little timing notch. Use a bit of whiteout to mark the notch so it is easily visible. Start your engine and get it to normal running operating temperature. Have it idling with choke completely off. Connect the power terminals of the timing light to the battery. Connect the ignition lead pickup of the timing light to the #1 cylinder ignition lead. Press the 'on' button if there is one on the timing light. The light should be flicker on and off quickly. Point the light at the crank pulley. Each time the timing light blinks, it will show you were the mark on the crank pulley is. You need to match the mark of the crankpulley to the proper mark on the timing cover behind the crank pulley. In the manual, it says to disable your ignition timing advance on your distributor (disconnect the vacuum line), and set your ignition timing to 5 degrees BTDC. When you reconnect the ignition timing advance, your base timing should jump up to around 13 degrees BTDC. As you adjust your timing, you will need to correct your idle speed. You want your idle speed to be at around 850rpm or so. If the idle speed is off, it will put your ignition base timing way off.

It sounds to me like your ignition timing is SUPER advanced. This would make your engine idle faster and ping lots, and have no power. This is really bad for your engine. Take it to a mechanic if you have to.

Your distributor could be off a tooth on its gear. If you can't adjust the distributor far enough to get the base timing to where it should be, you will need to pull the distributor and reinstall it (line up everything as described in the manual).

Your timing may be so advanced right now, that you won't even be able to see it on the crank pulley when you point the timing light at it.

Hope that helps.

Cheers.

xirdneh · Post by **xirdneh** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:33 am

MootsMan wrote: Could this be the distributor

pull the distributor cap
when crank pully is zero deg
and #1 piston is at top of stroke (compression stroke)
the distributor rotor should be pointing nearly northwest
when looking straight on at it (just a bit below NW position)
if its not in that range your off a tooth

MootsMan · Post by **MootsMan** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:33 pm

Today was the day I had set up to take the Terc to my mechanic. I got it there with no problem, but it was still doing it's 2000RPM idle thing. I was expecting him to have it a couple of days, but around 1pm he calls and says that it's ready. Seems the accelerator cable was sticking.

He adjusted the cable, checked all the vacuum lines, checked the timing ( which i DID have set right !!

), adjusted the idle a little. Drove into Nashville and back home tonight ( round trip of about 80 miles ) with no problems. I hope all the gremlins are worked out of it for now. I have to concentrate on getting the body back in shape, rust spots repaired, and the car painted.

I guess I'm one of those guys who makes things TOO complicated sometimes. :blink: But thanks for all the good advice !! It's all part of the learning process for me !

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:34 am

MootsMan wrote: Today was the day I had set up to take the Terc to my mechanic. I got it there with no problem, but it was still doing it's 2000RPM idle thing. I was expecting him to have it a couple of days, but around 1pm he calls and says that it's ready. Seems the accelerator cable was sticking.

He adjusted the cable, checked all the vacuum lines, checked the timing ( which i DID have set right !! ), adjusted the idle a little. Drove into Nashville and back home tonight ( round trip of about 80 miles ) with no problems. I hope all the gremlins are worked out of it for now. I have to concentrate on getting the body back in shape, rust spots repaired, and the car painted.

I guess I'm one of those guys who makes things TOO complicated sometimes. :blink: But thanks for all the good advice !! It's all part of the learning process for me !

Good news! Thats awesome!

Eatpants · Post by **Eatpants** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:25 pm

i love yet hate when it is something that simple

but in retrospect its a great thing to nitpick the important parts, so are you still at a loss for power?

ive got a problem like that too, i timed it last year right before i had it inspected and the mechanic told me it was dead on (i dont know about the valve timing though i need to get on the ball and check that)

a couple years back our timing belt broke as well and we replaced that (more like i watched my dad do it) congrats on doing that yourself it didnt look fun to me

i set my cold idle last year too before i moved but i dont know if its a good thing for the car to run at 2000 at 50 degrees Fahrenheit for a couple minutes (i might need to tone that down)

i had my carburetor rebuilt by a guy here in boise, he did it all for 250 which was really nice not having to mess with all those hoses

any ideas on my loss of power (having to feather gas pedal) ?

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:31 pm

You might just need a cleaning...?
Cool you got it down yourself.

Its possible your advance is out. Either mechanical or vacuum. Timing appears spot on at idle so most mechanics ignore it, but it stays the same throughout the revs versus what its supposed to do.

MootsMan · Post by **MootsMan** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:46 pm

My power has returned to normal.....no bogging down going up hills or on hard acceleration. I guess the cable getting in a bind could have caused thatl. These cars do seem to be pretty easy to work on......I mean, if I can do a timing belt, they cant' be that bad !!

All kidding aside, the physical aspects of changing the timing belt were not all that difficult. What gave me more trouble was not quite understanding all the timing issues. But I learned !

I filled up tonight ( at $2.909 per gallon), and calculated around 28MPG. I'm hoping that now with the acceleration and timing issues worked out, that the mileage will get back up there around the 32MPG range that I had just after the timing belt install. Typrus, do you think de-carboning the engine would be a good idea since it has 150K miles on it ? I'll keep y'all posted !

Eatpants, I'd check the valve timing for sure, and also all your vacuum lines. There are SO many lines under the hood, and just the right one disconnected or hooked up to the wrong port could throw things off. Also check the one under your air filter that goes into a valve of some kind under the filter housing. Evidently I had inadvertantly moved or screwed up the accelerator cable at some point when I took the valve cover off. There's any number of simple things that it could be. Good luck with it !

I'm seriously thinking about going the Weber route, after looking at Dirtmagnet's pictures again today. Under the hood looked so appealing without all those vacuum lines running everywhere.

MM

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:04 pm

Well, I don't know. If you need a re-ring and the carbon has hidden the problem, no. BUT... That is both highly unlikely (the carbon hiding thing) and would wind up arising eventually anyway.
Yes, Go for it and let us know how it goes.
With 32mpg, you were in great shape anyway apparently.
I am getting 25mpg fairly heavy on the foot, and for 80 miles, I was SO light on the foot, I got 18mpg from overdoing the lightness. I'm still trying to find the "Sweet Spot". If I ram the throttle, I did see 24.8. With all those highway miles from visiting my friend, I got 33 ish. I wish I could always get that.
As soon as I get a job, things will slowly start to move. Mind you, though my gears are laid in place, they have yet to be determined if they will turn, or jam.

What are the disadvantages of a Weber? Advantages? I know a few, but more must be known.

Eatpants · Post by **Eatpants** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:02 pm

my vaccum lines are good so i'll get to the valve timing some day...maybe today

Teddy1 · Post by **Teddy1** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:16 am

MootsMan-

I believe we live in fair proximity to each other.

If you would like some help hotrodding/tuning/repairing your Tercel, feel free to email me at: mailto:ted@accutransinc.net

Several of the other Ski Wagons gang live up here in Seattle, too (or fairly close) and at the very least, you could get involved with our repairs and upgrades for the experience! If you desired to do so.

Hot tip: I have been running the 185/80-13's from Discount Tire now for the last five years... they are a cheap upgrade on the factory wheels for a little bit of clearance AND a nicer ride... VERY useful when the rains (and potentially, snow) come.

- Teddy