Motor Rattle

[Petros]

that is a pretty drastic measure to fix something you are not even sure of the cause. Not that getting a parts car cheap is not a bad idea, it is a big job to swap out an engine.

I highly recommend you diagnose the cause BEFORE you try and fix it.

Us a mechanic's stethoscope (they do not cost much) or a long screw driver (or something similar) pressed to your ear and the other end placed on various other parts of the engine while it is running. It will help you pin point the source of the noise.

[rocketscience]

I thought that when I pulled the spark wire plug off of the fourth cylinder and it completely stopped that that pretty much confirmed a problem with the bottom end on #4. I've tried using a screwdriver to the ear and could not really hear anything on the top that was definitely it.

And yeah its louder at start up but also never really goes away, there is a rattle sound in first and second when accelerating most of the time.

I'm gonna be able to get the parts car for $200, but before I do, do you doubt my diagnosis? I figured that anything else like an exhaust leak, fuel pump, top end problem etc would continue no matter which plug wire I pulled, but it definitely stops completely when I pull #4.

[irowiki]

IT could just be a bad plug, plug wire, or distributor cap. Did you try replacing all three?

[rocketscience]

yes, I did and it had no effect on the noise

[rocketscience]

Well I bought the car, just got it towed back here. In an unexpected turn the body and many of the parts in the 'parts' car are actually in better shape than the other Tercel I own. The motor ran well and compression was at about 180 on #1-3 and 160 for #4. Carb needs some work and I suspect a vacuum leak or thirty but all in all its a really nice car, even has what look like brand new tires! So instead of swapping the motor into the other car I'd like to fix this new one up and sell the other one, just as long as I don't need to use its transmission. The car I bought today doesn't go into any gear, the PO said it would go into one but would pop out and make scary grinding noises. I tried to adjust the clutch pedal, it looks like the self adjusting gear is all the way to the end of its travel, and I just adjusted the pedal height before the tow truck showed up. When I tried to put it in gear after that it made kind of a whirring sound and didn't engage at all. Does this sound like a worn out clutch or a trashed transaxle/transmission? I'll check the clutch cable and gear oil first and do some more research!

[Petros]

sounds like the trans could be bundled up. It might also be a wasted clutch, either way the trans has to come out. drain the gear oil into a pan and examine it for metal parts. If it is trashed, you will see lots of flakes and even bits of gear teeth. If not, it might just be something wrong with the clutch. A stretche out clutch cable would not completely disengage the clutch, making it nearly impossible to get it into gear. if you did, each shift would get you grinding gears. So check the clutch cable, it might be stretched past where the adjuster can take up the slack.

a new cable is the only repair that might fix that issue that does not require pulling the transaxle. If you want to cheap out, you can pull the clutch cable from your other Tercel and swap it into the other one (it is not hard to do). Or you can buy a new clutch cable (though I would not do that for just to diagnose the problem, unless you want a new clutch cable). Rockauto sometimes has clutch cables for the 2nd gen tercel for less than $10, you have to shop the website regularly to find out if they have any on close out.

If it is not the cable, than the trans has to come out to either replace the clutch or the transaxle assembly.

Good luck.

[rocketscience]

Thanks Petros. I figured I'd want to at least replace the clutch either way, it probably hasn't been done since the motor was put in 100k miles ago. Looks like I can get a clutch cable on Rock Auto for $5.66 so I'll just do it, it looks like this one's too stretched for anymore adjustment. I'll take a picture if I find any noteworthy chunks in the gear oil.

[rocketscience]

I drained the gear oil today and it was extremely low, the oil was cold but I only got about a quart out of it. I drained the front diff first, there was a presence of ultra small metal particles especially when I pulled my finger through it, though not a ton, and the drain plug had a decent amount of very fine metal sludge all over it and one very small metal shard. The rest of the transmission seemed to have a larger quantity of ultra small particles. I couldn't really see the particles on my finger, some of them I could, but it was more of just a metallic sheen I could notice when I pulled my finger through. There were no large chunks or gear bits.

It looked way better than I expected it to, but I am weary of pulling the transmission to do the clutch and putting the same one in after the fluid looked like that. My other car is an '83, so I know I could change the transmission but if I do the whole assembly I'd have to swap the rear diff too, but am considering it. I couldn't find any 83-88 Tercels on the pick-n-pull site and the cheapest ones on car-parts are way to pricey and far away. The 83 transmission shifts great and the oil looked totally fine, and I'm thinking I should use that one in the car I want to keep even though its a lot of work and has a less desirable diff ratio. I'd put swap the one I drained today into the 83 to give it a shot, I don't want to junk the car and would love it if it drove okay and could be passed on to somebody else.

I still need to mess with the clutch cable and I wish I knew more about how it was driving before it stopped shifting, but thats where I am. Any advice?

[Petros]

once the trans is out of the car you can try and shift it though the gears by hand, and rotate the input shaft also my hand and see if you feel any "bad" spots. It helps to have someone put resitance on the output shaft so you can feel the gear better. put it in all gears, and in 4wd, and rotate the input shaft though several full rotations of the output shaft. If it is bundled up, you will know it before you put it back in. Driving with only a quart of gear oil (it should have 4 quarts), is a bad sign it was likely damaged.

fine Metal particles are not automatically mean it is toast, just worn. if it shift though all gears okay, you could put it back, do an ATF/gear oil trans flush (drive it for a few days with 50/50 mix of ATF/cheap gear oil, than change it out with good gear oil), it may clean up and drive okay. the ATF will scrub all the metal particles out of it.

[xirdneh]

with only a qt of oil in it your probably going to have a un repairable tranny
i took at least 4 apart this year that had a qt or less oil and they were fried
watch video on utube and take it apart
its easier to pull tranny if you remove input shaft first see repair guides on how to do this

[rocketscience]

Okay thanks guys, I'll pull it and check it out.

[rocketscience]

I haven't got the trans out yet, I'm working outside and its been raining a lot, but when I jacked the front end up and went to pull off the wheels I noticed that they were both way too loose, there was a ton of play in the wheel/brake rotor. I lowered the car and undid the axle cotter pin the the axle nut wasn't tight at all on either side. What the hell??? Did both of the axle nuts back off? Not torqued right? Poor threading on axles?? The bearings actually sound okay, which is really suprising, but I'll bet they're not in good shape. Actually I'm wondering if the inside of the hub could be worn from this, and am just thinking about swaping em with the other car instead of pressing in and out new bearings, etc.

[Petros]

it will not harm a thing if the big axle nuts are not tight (they are supposed to have a cotter pin in a crown to keep them from backing off, was your missing).

Eventually it might wear the spline shaft, and you risk breaking off the axle stub, but it will not affect the wheel bearings, ball joints or tie rod ends at all.

If the wheel wobbles around when all of the suspension nuts, bolts and fasteners are tight, it usually means the bearings are shot. Could also be sloppy ball joints or tie-rod ends, you have to more the wheel around and look to see where the motion is coming from.

It is not usual for people to keep driving long after the bearings or ball joints should have been replaced. Usually you can replace them without any other issues, however, badly wiped out bearings can often damage the hub or spindle when the parts are wearing metal to metal, with all of the roller bearings are crumbled away and fallen out. I have seen this several times, you have to pull it apart to see if you gave to replaced suspension or hub/steering knuckle parts. Usually not, but it just depends how much of a dip-sh*t the previous owner was to keep driving it even though there was something clearly wrong the front end (I have done it too! I keep putting off checking out the source of noise).

Good luck.

[Notmikeb]

Doesn't the axle nut hold the spindle into the hub? I know it's a press fit but it seems like it could easily start pulling out while cornering if there is play allowed.

[dlb]

the axle nuts should obv be torqued up but if the wheel is loose despite the lug nuts being torqued up, i think you need to inspect your bearings further.