Timing Off?

[rocketscience]

First post! I just bought an 83 SR5 3ac wagon with about 260k and am going through it trying to get it running really well. I replaced the distributor cap and rotor, wires and plugs, pcv valve and housing, changed the oil and filter, fuel filter and adjusted the idle. Its now idling around 900 and sounding better (the idle has been okay but a little rough). The car always starts immediately and runs pretty well, not much power at all on hills but gets up to speed okay otherwise and the economy seems fine for the hundred or so miles I've driven it (1/4 tank on the gauge?). I've never owned one of these so I don't know what to expect.

Next I wanted to check the timing. Found an old timing light and hooked it up to the first spark plug and found it right around 10* BTDC. Then I realized I forgot to remove and plug the vacuum advance. Did that and found it around 10-15* ATDC? I tried adjusting the distributor as far forward as I could and could not get it any better than about 3* ATDC.

So after reading a bunch of posts on here including this good one: viewtopic.php?t=9103 and a couple really good posts by keith as well as the FSM, I pulled plug #1 and found TDC and then tried to pull the top TB cover and to check the valve timing marks. I had a hard time even pulling the cover, removed both belts and still can't get it off (water pump pulley is in the way, does this need to be removed?), but I pulled it back far enough to check the marks and they are NOT lined up! The hole is to the left of the triangle. The notch on the crankshaft pulley is also NOT lined up with the timing belt cover, it is a few degrees ATDC.


So the valve timing is off, right? I need to pull the pulley, the cover, check the crankshaft marks and re-time the whole thing? Did somebody totally botch the timing belt job? I thought it would run a lot worse or possibly not run at all.

[Notmikeb]

The crank pulley can only go on one way so if it says you are a few degrees atdc then you are. it seems like you're saying both cam and crank marks are showing atdc. Ignoring where you see the piston through the plug hole, do the marks line up when the crank shows tdc?

[rocketscience]

Hmm that is what I thought but also read that some people's keyholes get buggered up. I just looked and the crankshaft pulley is actually pretty close, but when I line it up with the mark at 0* the hole in the camshaft gear is still well left of the triangle (the triangle is fully outside the X of the gear).

[rocketscience]

Actually when I lined the crank up the camshaft is slightly more left than it was.

[dlb]

hang on, this doesn't make sense:

Next I wanted to check the timing. Found an old timing light and hooked it up to the first spark plug and found it right around 10* BTDC. Then I realized I forgot to remove and plug the vacuum advance. Did that and found it around 10-15* ATDC? I tried adjusting the distributor as far forward as I could and could not get it any better than about 3* ATDC.

the vacuum advance doesn't not advance the timing 20-25* so i would recheck your timing before you start pulling anything else apart. the upper vac can advances the timing by 8* at idle and cruising, the lower vac can advances it by 13* at cruising. so unplugging the upper can should only alter your timing by 8* while unplugging the lower can should have no effect at idle.

[rocketscience]

Okay, checked it again. After the advancing I did earlier, with both vacuum hoses connected I'm now somewhere around 20* BTDC. When I unplug the upper hose there is no change. When I unplug the lower hose it falls way back to 2 or 3* ATDC. I checked the routing of the two hoses and they appear to be correct, at least on the dist end, the upper one (closest to the distributor body) goes to the T and check valve as per the vacuum diagram.

I even tried switching them, and when I did that it was around 0* with the hoses and made little or no change when I unplugged either of them.

I think my vac hose routing is wrong or maybe my vac advance is stuck? It seems pretty close with the hoses plugged in now.

[dlb]

it sounds like the vacuum hoses are mixed up. trace them to their sources. the upper advance port should be connected to manifold vacuum (the thing with 1, 2, or 3 ports that sits in front of the carb on the intake manifold) and the lower advance port should be connected to ported vacuum (on the passenger side of the carb).

it can be tricky tracing vacuum routing with the steel lines so what i do is unplug the start and end points, blow through one end, and check for air coming out the other end. for example, if you unplug the hose at the upper advance port and the one at the manifold vacuum port and blow through either one, air should come out the other hose. if it doesn't, you need to straighten that out.

you can also suck on the hoses going to the vacuum advance ports to make sure they hold vacuum. if they don't, if you can suck air through, that port is ruptured and no good. plug the hose that goes to that port and move on for now. if your upper advance can has two ports, plug the second port when you suck or else it will suck air through and give you a false reading.

[rocketscience]

Ok I'll check it out, thank you!

[rocketscience]

Alright, I traced and rerouted the all of the vacuum hoses according to the hood diagram and the one on this forum. There were a lot mis-routed! I probably changed 8 or so hoses around including the top vacuum hose for the distributor which is now going to the vacuum manifold (mine just has one port). I reset the idle again and checked the timing.... now with the hoses (really just the top hose now) connected it's around 5 or 6* BTDC and without still around 2 or 3* ATDC. Getting closer! At least now the vacuum seems to be working right and advancing 8*, but the timing is still too retarded and I've advanced the timing with the distributor pinch nut as far as I can.

Is the distributor off by a tooth or is the camshaft gear off? I mean, the camshaft gear marks aren't lined up, like I said, so that's what I would think it is. It holds a pretty steady idle around 8 or 900, though it could probably idle lower, but it doesn't sound very good, lots of low sounding put puts that aren't very steady sounding.

[ARCHINSTL]

Ok I'll check it out, thank you!

Check out this link for vac diagrams:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2810
Tom M.

[rocketscience]

Thanks Tom, I just used that along with the diagram on my hood and I think I got em all lined out, but my timing is still around 2 or 3 ATDC without the distributor vac hoses. In the post I just made I was speculating that the camshaft gear could be off, which it does appear to be, but that would be the valve timing and not the ignition timing, right? I'm not very well versed with ignition systems, my other car is a 96 Passat TDI and I haven't messed with em in a few years.

[rocketscience]

I was just rereading this post by keith: viewtopic.php?p=38212#top

He says that if the pulley timing marks don't line up when the cam timing marks do that you need to pull the bottom cover and check it out, I'm thinking that's what I need to do. But Notmike said above that the pulley only goes on one way, so is it just the cam that's off? I was planning on pulling the valve cover to check lash after I set the ignition timing, I could just do that now so I could see if the valves seem to be in time.

[Gottolovem]

I had a hard time even pulling the cover, removed both belts and still can't get it .

Did you get the little bolt in the "hiding" in the midle of the cover?

[rocketscience]

I had a hard time even pulling the cover, removed both belts and still can't get it .

Did you get the little bolt in the "hiding" in the midle of the cover?

Oh yeah I did, I finally popped it off, I think I was mostly afraid of breaking it. The belt looks really good but it's not centered on the cam gear or the tensioner, its riding farther forward than I think it should, like on the edge of both.

[Gottolovem]

If your not off the "edge" of the gear or tensioner it should wear fine.
I can't really improve on advice already given.
You can redo the belt to get the gear right. Sounds like your using the forum to get answers, so i wont bother with procedure.