No start, VERY frustrated.

[dlb]

the primary butterfly will not move because it is moved by vacuum (engine must be running)

i think rob meant that the secondary butterfly will not move because it is moved by vacuum.

[Petros]

I just read this thread, you got good answers, to sum up: if you have a good strong spark and you have fuel (added by you), than next to look at is timing belt. sometimes they can jump if old or if not tensioned properly.

If you tried a good distributor off another car than that is not likely it (thought you might put the distributor out of the non-running car into the running one just as a double back-check on the distributor).

Also check for a massive vacuum leak, that will prevent it from starting, and from the way it was running before it sounds like you may have a vacuum leak. A minor vac leak will not prevent it from running, it will only cause a fast idle and hesitation. but a bad vac leak will not allow it to start because of too leak a mixture.

You might also have several things going wrong at once, not common but it can happen, much to your frustration.

[Jarf]

Whoa, WAY too much fuel.
A teaspoon or 2 was suggested, a 1/4 cup is overkill and will just add to your frustrations cause now its flooded, too.

While the weber may be a great choice, I personally wouldn't do the swap until I had the car running right with the original carb.
If you buy a weber, toss it on and still have the same problem, THEN what do you do??

[dlb]

While the weber may be a great choice, I personally wouldn't do the swap until I had the car running right with the original carb.
If you buy a weber, toss it on and still have the same problem, THEN what do you do??

big agree here.

[tealindy]

Still in NC at the moment, but I will check on that primary butterfly and see whats going on.

Whoa, WAY too much fuel.
A teaspoon or 2 was suggested, a 1/4 cup is overkill and will just add to your frustrations cause now its flooded, too.

While the weber may be a great choice, I personally wouldn't do the swap until I had the car running right with the original carb.
If you buy a weber, toss it on and still have the same problem, THEN what do you do??

My estimate on the fuel amount is probably a little exaggerated, but it was probably still more than i should have used , oh well.

As far as doing the carb swap, there are only so many things that can go wrong with an engine. I will find the problem. Be it before or after the swap, that part makes zero difference to the process. In fact it will actually make my job easier, fewer vacuum lines to check + Brand new carb = far fewer things to go wrong, leaving far fewer areas to check.

I am fairly confident the belt has slipped a notch or two, but like i said, still in NC. . .

[tealindy]

I'm back fellas. Finally got around to fooling with the car this afternoon. Took off the timing cover and found nothing to be drastically out of order, however i did end up adjusting the cam gear 1 tooth. I must have reset my timing 3 or 4 times just to make sure i had everything absolutely perfect.

Steps i took;
#1 piston at TDC,
Distributor set to 10:30 exactly,
Vacuum advance lines hooked up,
All vacuum lines thoroughly inspected,
1 replaced because the check valve was broken in half,
NEW coil (import direct),
NEW rotor button (import direct),
Fuel pump checked, pulled the line that goes directly to the carb and had someone turn the engine over, and had a nice steady stream after the third or fourth revolution.

ALL spark plugs pulled and minimal wear with typical coloration.


After all this, the only thing that has changed is the car will now burp every so often. It did try to catch once, but it was very short lived.
I am out of ideas at this point and on the verge of a mental breakdown.


Is there anything else ignition related that i might be overlooking?
Can spark plugs look perfectly fine but still be no good?
Can the carb be so messed up that it is the source of the problem?
We have known for a while now that an accelerator pump was going out, if it failed entirely is there any chance that IT could be part of the problem?
How about any sensors, cam, crank or otherwise?
Vulnerable ground wires?

[dlb]

Steps i took;
#1 piston at TDC,
Distributor set to 10:30 exactly...

did you confirm the piston is at TDC of the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke? i do this by plugging the spark plug hole with my thumb while cranking the engine with a ratchet on the crank pulley bolt. when you feel pressure build up behind your thumb, you are approaching TDC of the compression stroke. be sure to remove the ratchet before anything else or it will rip your radiator apart.

sorry if i'm repeating myself here, i didn't bother re-reading the thread before posting this.

next thing i would do is a compression test just to make sure something isn't catastrophically wrong in the block. if all is well there, i would try swapping on a known good carb.

i've been in your position a number of times and can totally relate to your frustration. just try to remember how good it will feel once you solve this SOB problem.

[tealindy]

did you confirm the piston is at TDC of the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke? i do this by plugging the spark plug hole with my thumb while cranking the engine with a ratchet on the crank pulley bolt. when you feel pressure build up behind your thumb, you are approaching TDC of the compression stroke. be sure to remove the ratchet before anything else or it will rip your radiator apart.

sorry if i'm repeating myself here, i didn't bother re-reading the thread before posting this.

next thing i would do is a compression test just to make sure something isn't catastrophically wrong in the block. if all is well there, i would try swapping on a known good carb.

i've been in your position a number of times and can totally relate to your frustration. just try to remember how good it will feel once you solve this SOB problem.

I have done the thumb trick every time i need to find TDC and have confirmed the crank and cam gear are aligned properly. Unless there was catastrophic head gasket failure i cant imagine it to be the problem.

Since you stated you did not read the ealier posts i will fill you in as best i can. The car was running more or pretty good just a few weeks ago. My dad was having trouble with it stalling when coming to a stop and a more pronounced level of under poweredness. Again, as stated above, i have known for a while now that an accleorator pump was going out, causing the innitial lack of power, but it was worse the last few days my dad was driving it. The very last time it ran, my dad had went out and started the car just so it could run some, it had been sitting for about a week. After letting it run for about 20 min or so they shut it off and it hasnt ran since.

I will check the compression around 90 psi right? I also considered a carb swap, but if i am going to go through all of that headache i am going to get the Weber kit and just be done with it. It doesnt really matter if the weber fixes the problem because i am planning on doing the swap regaurdless.

[irowiki]

So if you pour a teaspoon of gas down your primary barrel right now and try starting the car what happens? Same with starting fluid?

You have spark currently?

When you crank the engine does your tach go up? Like to the 200-300 range, or does it stay at zero?

[tealindy]

So if you pour a teaspoon of gas down your primary barrel right now and try starting the car what happens? Same with starting fluid?

You have spark currently?

When you crank the engine does your tach go up? Like to the 200-300 range, or does it stay at zero?

Pouring gas has the same effect as sparying starting fluid and that effect is nothing. Yes i have spark, on all four plugs, tested them individually and swapped out a set from a running car just for good measure. As far as the tach, i have honestly never noticed if it moves. Lets say it doesnt, then what?

[dlb]

no, on these engines compression should be 160-180 psi and each cylinder within 10% of each other. 140-160 is also ok, 120-140 means a rebuild is near, and under 120 means lack of power, probably burning oil, and should be rebuilt now. each cylinder should be cranked the same amount (i usually do 8 cranks) and the throttle should be wide open. the engine should also be warm ideally but it won't make too much difference.

i just rebuilt one of these carbs for the first time. it was only $40 for the kit and easy to do. the thing wouldn't run previously and now it runs flawlessly. i'm not trying to talk you out of a weber, that's just another option, and considerably cheaper.

[irowiki]

If the tach doesn't move at all when cranking something in the distributor might be at fault. Check the little silver dealy that attaches to the front screw on the distributor cap, make sure the wires aren't broken.

[Mark]

Based on the info so far, I'd still suspect timing. You said you replaced the distributor. I'm not sure how you set the timing. If the engine wouldn't run I guess you couldn't have used a light. One way of checking the timing without a light and with the engine not running is:
- Use a wrench or strong hands to move the crankshaft pulley to TDC as verified by looking in the spark plug hole for #1 cylinder. The mark on the crankshaft pulley should be at the 0 degrees mark.
-Then rotate the pulley slightly until the mark on the pulley matches up with 5 degrees (factory setting).
-Then take off the distributor cap. Look to see that the rotor is pointing at the wire going to #1 spark plug.
-Pull off the rotor and look to see that the "point" on the shaft is centered on the pick-up coil (small black box).
-As long as your camshaft pulley and crankshaft pulley are correctly aligned (although you said you moved the belt a tooth?) you should now be at a timing of 5 degrees BTDC.

rotor.png

If I'm wrong, somebody please let me know since that's how I set up the timing on my wagon.

[Petros]

usually a bad carb or poor spark plugs will not stop it from running (or a bad accelerator pump). Even low compression will not stop it from running (unless you have more than one cycinder at zero psi, it will start and run on three). It will just run bad, but it will still start.

I also suspect timing. if you have a strong spark than likely it is off a cylinder or two. when at true TDC check that the rotor is pointing at the number one spark plug terminal, and than also double check the firing order of 1-3-4-2, distributor rotor rotates clockwise. If the rotor is not pointing at #1 cylinder terminal than you have to pull the distr. and reset the gear so it is.

good luck

[tealindy]

Got the compressor tester.

#1 cyl: 90psi

#2, #3, and #4 cyl: 120psi

The car does have 240,000 miles on it.


* Also checked the Tach, and it does read around 200rpm when turning the engine over. I am going to swap the entire ignition system from my good running car over to this car; distributor, cap, plugs, wires, rotor

Just as FYI i have already done this once, with no effect, but i want to do it again for good measure.


* Also also, checked the "little silver dealy" no wires are broken and i did my best to trace them to their source and they seem to be fully intact.