No start, VERY frustrated.

[tealindy]

Hello all, its been awhile since my last post, but i am back and despite my love of these little cars, good god almighty can they p*ss me off. My original issue was with my 1985 (engine: 3A) 4wd SR5 5spd wagon having a horrible hesitation when accelerating hard. That problem is still unchanged, but now i cant even get the car started. Its has always been difficult to start, which i chalked up to a bad automatic choke.

Now. The car still turns over very smoothly and with good speed and you can hear the engine attempt to catch. You can hear it fire once, every other revolution.
Pulled the #2 plug to check for spark, good.
Checked gap on #2, good. (.042)

Looked down the throat of TB to check for fuel, didn't see anything when pumping pedal, BUT i can hear squirting. Fuel filter is new and full. Fuel is fresh.
Even with a fresh can of starting fluid, spraying directly down the TB makes zero difference. So it can be a fuel issue.

I have read a lot of people swapping dizzys for troubleshooting purposes and figured i would give it a try.

FWIW, I have another T4wd that, for all intents and purposes, is identical in every way and runs and drives extremely well.

I removed the dizzy AND plug wires from the good running T4wd and installed them on the non running. I put the #1 cylinder at TDC and installed the good dizzy with the rotor facing 10:30, roughly, as per the instructions in the repair guide on this site.

Go to crank it, Zero difference in symptoms. I played with the timing advance/retard as someone else turned the car over just in case and it did not make a difference. At this point half my hair has fallen out and i have aged 10 years. I am not sure what else there is.

Do these cars have ECUs or Crank sensors?

[TURTCEL]

Hey Tealindy, sorry to hear you are having runnability issues. These probs can sometimes be tough to diagnose but usually are pretty simple. not much to these little cars.

There is an "ECU", but not much info on that little guy. It is actually thought to be more like a relay box for the emissions control system. It is located behind the glove box...usually tan or blue box from my experiences with them. I have swapped mine with 2 other "ECU"s and only one worked that was for a MT but it would not start with the "ECU" for an AT. If yours is bad it could potentially cause the car not to start like I experienced.

It sounds to me like you have checked the only 2 systems that are necessary to work for the car to start. If you have tried starting fluid with no change then I would say that the issue lies in the ignition system. Since you swapped the dizzy and you said there was no change then I would double check the timing and also the main fuse box under the hood for any blown main fuses or bad ignition relays. Sounds like you are not getting spark or timing is way out still.

Good luck.

Peace

[tealindy]

Where are these ignition relays located? The car is in fact getting good spark, at least on the #2 cylinder, pulled the plug, stuck it on the valve cover, and cranked the engine; good yellowish/white spark. The timing belt is new and not even a year old. Is it possible for it to have slipped a few teeth?

Keep in mind that the car has been running perfectly fine for the past several months, save the hesitation issue.


A small piece of the puzzle that i have been stewing on is this; a few days before the car quit all together it would stall when coming to a stop and seemed under powered when driving around. After considering this, i am wondering if all my listed symptoms are the result of a failing/now failed fuel pump.

[xirdneh]

have you tried dropping a few teaspoons of gas down the carb
if it fires right up and dies you know its a gas problem
but before trying this shine a light down the throat of the carb and open the throttle so you can look to the bottom to see if there is a large puddle of gas down there
flooded

[tealindy]

have you tried dropping a few teaspoons of gas down the carb
if it fires right up and dies you know its a gas problem
but before trying this shine a light down the throat of the carb and open the throttle so you can look to the bottom to see if there is a large puddle of gas down there
flooded

Not yet, and i thought using the starting fluid would debunk a no fuel scenario, but i am not so sure now. I was wondering if the SF could even get to the cylinders, what with all the dang butter flys in the TB. I will definitely try a little gas straight in.

Yes i have looked down the throat and not only is there no puddle, but it doesn't squirt either. You cant really see the true bottom, because there is a butter fly at the very bottom blocking the view and the other side has another butterfly at the very top and neither open with the gas pedal.

[larry mcgrath]

there is a sight glass in the front of the carb that shows the float level,of the fuel in the carb, it should be in the center of the sight glass. pull the fuel line off at the carb, put the line in a bottle,crank the engine to check the the fuel pump is pumping fuel. pull all the plugs and see if they are wet with fuel, they may need to be dryed off, this can be done by using your starting fluid to clean off the plugs -the gap should be set at .043 thosands . check all the plugs to see if all plug wires are putting out spark. when you spray starting fluid down the throat of the carb ,prop the choke open with a screw driver,open the throtle FULL and spray

[tealindy]

there is a sight glass in the front of the carb that shows the float level,of the fuel in the carb, it should be in the center of the sight glass. pull the fuel line off at the carb, put the line in a bottle,crank the engine to check the the fuel pump is pumping fuel. pull all the plugs and see if they are wet with fuel, they may need to be dryed off, this can be done by using your starting fluid to clean off the plugs -the gap should be set at .043 thosands . check all the plugs to see if all plug wires are putting out spark. when you spray starting fluid down the throat of the carb ,prop the choke open with a screw driver,open the throtle FULL and spray

You dont happen to have a picture of that sight glass do you? I havent the foggiest idea where it might be. I will check the fuel pump, how much flow should i expect to see? Steady stream?

I have pulled the #1 and #2 plugs. #2 looks fine as far as wear is concerned, totally dry, not wet. #1 plug, no gas, but slathered in oil. It has been that way for a loooooong time, i am pretty sure it is the valve stem seals. The car has 230k for cryin out loud.

As far as plug wires, i swapped all the plug wires and entire distributor from my good running Tercel with zero difference in symptoms.

Hello all, its been awhile since my last post, but i am back and despite my love of these little cars, good god almighty can they p*ss me off. My original issue was with my 1985 (engine: 3A) 4wd SR5 5spd wagon having a horrible hesitation when accelerating hard. That problem is still unchanged, but now i cant even get the car started. Its has always been difficult to start, which i chalked up to a bad automatic choke.

Now. The car still turns over very smoothly and with good speed and you can hear the engine attempt to catch. You can hear it fire once, every other revolution.
Pulled the #2 plug to check for spark, good.
Checked gap on #2, good. (.042)

Looked down the throat of TB to check for fuel, didn't see anything when pumping pedal, BUT i can hear squirting. Fuel filter is new and full. Fuel is fresh.
Even with a fresh can of starting fluid, spraying directly down the TB makes zero difference. So it can be a fuel issue.

I have read a lot of people swapping dizzys for troubleshooting purposes and figured i would give it a try.

FWIW, I have another T4wd that, for all intents and purposes, is identical in every way and runs and drives extremely well.

I removed the dizzy AND plug wires from the good running T4wd and installed them on the non running. I put the #1 cylinder at TDC and installed the good dizzy with the rotor facing 10:30, roughly, as per the instructions in the repair guide on this site.

Go to crank it, Zero difference in symptoms. I played with the timing advance/retard as someone else turned the car over just in case and it did not make a difference. At this point half my hair has fallen out and i have aged 10 years. I am not sure what else there is.

Do these cars have ECUs or Crank sensors?

[dlb]

could the dizzy be 360* off? when you reinstalled the dizzy, did you make sure the first cylinder was at TDC of it's compression stroke, and not the exhaust stroke? easy way to check this is to pull the first spark plug and hold your thumb over the hole while you crank the engine clockwise with a ratchet on the crank pulley bolt. when you feel the pressure under your thumb build up, you know you're approaching TDC of the compression stroke. shine a light in the hole and keep turning the crank until the piston is at the top. now look at the crank pulley and confirm it's right around the '0' mark on the lower timing cover. remove the dizzy cap and confirm the rotor is at 1030.

if all of that checks out, pull the upper timing cover and confirm the cam marks also line up when at TDC. if it doesn't, the belt has slipped. i think you said the timing belt is new so i don't think this is likely but it's worth investigating.

[tealindy]

could the dizzy be 360* off? when you reinstalled the dizzy, did you make sure the first cylinder was at TDC of it's compression stroke, and not the exhaust stroke? easy way to check this is to pull the first spark plug and hold your thumb over the hole while you crank the engine clockwise with a ratchet on the crank pulley bolt. when you feel the pressure under your thumb build up, you know you're approaching TDC of the compression stroke. shine a light in the hole and keep turning the crank until the piston is at the top. now look at the crank pulley and confirm it's right around the '0' mark on the lower timing cover. remove the dizzy cap and confirm the rotor is at 1030.

if all of that checks out, pull the upper timing cover and confirm the cam marks also line up when at TDC. if it doesn't, the belt has slipped. i think you said the timing belt is new so i don't think this is likely but it's worth investigating.

I did exactly this, to the letter. The only thing i haven't done is pull the timing cover. I was REALLY hoping to avoid having to dig that deep.

[dlb]

the upper timing cover is easy to pull. just remove the alternator/water pump belt, the water pump pulley, and a handful of 10 mm bolts. the lower cover is a bit more involved but i don't think you need to remove it yet.

[Jarf]

When I find myself getting frustrated while searching for a diagnosis, I usually stop and do a full rethink on what I have done, more often than not, I have skipped a step or two in my detailed analysis, more often than not, going back over things and re-verifying EVERYTHING usually ends my frustration.

That means looking at #3 & #4 plugs/spark as well.
Compression test might also be a good idea.
There are no crank sensors, O2 sensors or any other electronic control features, other than perhaps the fuel supply solenoid for the low (idle) speed circuit.
There's also no TB, it's a carb, while they may look similar they aren't.
Even the "auto choke" is a very simple beast, the biggest issue with chokes are usually centred on seized mechanisms, not component failure.

Go have a beer (or whatever "refreshment" you prefer) then take another "go round" without skipping any steps, your frustration will likely dissipate quickly.

[marlinh]

There is a wiring harness that energizes the solenoids and the choke stat on the carb. It usually has a green plug on it and it is near the overflow bottle. The car will not run if it is unplugged. Check the harness carefully for broken wires.

[durecell]

if you have spark and you have fuel(including starting fluid) and you have air. those are the main things. the next is the timing. if its not receiving the fuel or spark at the proper time it wont fire. make sure your camshaft is positioned right and the crank is right. then if the dizzy is close it should start. even with starting fluid it should fire for a bit as long as timing is close.

[tealindy]

Ok, so today with the good distributor and plug wires still in place i poured about a quarter, maybe half, a cup of raw fuel down the throat of the carb as a last ditch effort and tried to start it. That engine is D-E-A-D dead, not even a burp. Unfortunately i will be heading out of town for the next few days so i will be unavailable to do any further testing. Once i get back i will recheck for spark on each plug, reset the distributor, and pull the timing cover and see what might really going on.

On a side note, after reading nothing but positive experiences about it, i have been convinced that i am going to do the weber carb conversion on this particular vehicle. The carb is the factory one and all of the vacuum hoses are extremely brittle and hard making vacuum leaks more likely every day. Is there one writeup/link in particular you would recommend reading for this swap?

[xirdneh]

you mentioned the butterfly on the primary and secondary barrels would not move so you could not see to the bottom (manifold)
the primary butterfly should open when you work the throttle by hand (if it does not then something is wrong)
the secondary (edited) butterfly will not move because it is moved by vacuum (engine must be running)