Absolute newb looking for advice

[emilyrobin]

toyotal tercel

[ARCHINSTL]

Welcome to the Club! Your car looks really clean! There are MANY helpful folks here. We also have a downloadable FSM (Factory Service Manual), and another invaluable resource is that AutoZone has another great manual online in it Repair Guides for our little guys - it has photos as well!

Now, most of us have done most of our own maintenance - it's not that hard - really!
Everything you've related can be done with a modest amount of of tools, parts, and patience. The T4WD is really easy to work on - true!

The prices you quote seem quite high to me - but then, I don't know your area and I don't know your labor rates (I've only had to have an outside shop turn Goldie's brake drums), and I've done everything from a complete brake job to replacing struts to a Weber carb, plus a myriad of other jobs.

And - virtually all of the tools I've used came from my bicycle store (now closed) - and I work on a gravel driveway (no garage).

You were/are a wrench? Where abouts? My store was in the St. Louis area for 30 years.
Tom MW

[TominMO]

Welcome to the forum, and great-lookin' T4 BTW!

I see from the plate in the first pic you are in Oregon. Maybe a mechanically-knowledgeable member from the area could stop by, fix a few things, and give good advice....

Those prices are very high. They see a female and see dollar signs. I wish you had come here before having any repairs done. At least you got out of the Volvo. Talk about expensive repairs!

Get a knowledgeable friend to advise you in buying a good metric mechanic's tool set (recommend Sears Craftsman, or another that has a lifetime free replacement warranty). We're talking $100-150 here. You will still have to supplement that set from time to time with a special or a more-convenient tool. But buying all the tools you will need for 95% of the jobs will still be far far cheaper than taking it to a mechanic! And you will learn stuff, and feel more comfortable taking it on trips if you understand your ride better.

If you have a mechanically-inclined friend, maybe you can ply him/her with food/beer/etc. in exchange for repairs. The ideal situation would be for the friend to do the repairs with you right there, walking you through it and explaining along the way.

Almost forgot this very important advice: never buy cheap parts, to save a few bucks. Repair shops do this all the time BTW, even if the top-quality part is just a little more. It's all about profitability. I have a car that a mechanic charged the owner $100 for a $10 outer tie rod (steering part). The PO (previous owner) was a girl of course.... Buying the best parts is all the more important for steering and brake parts, and things that are harder to get to--more time (you) or money (the shop) to replace--like timing belts and water pumps.

Where in OR are you? I used to live in Cannon Beach.

[Mark]

Some of those quotes seem ridiculously high, even for Canada, where I am.

$250 for belts? Mine only has one (no AC or power steering), but they're usually less than $20 and it takes 10 minutes to put one on.

Timing belt is about $30. It takes more time to replace, but with the right tools it shouldn't take much longer than an hour. Many cars have the water pump under the timing belt cover so many mechanics automatically replace the water pump when they replace the timing belt. Maybe they're assuming the Tercel is the same and they're adding in that cost. The Tercel's water pump is actually easily-accessible on it's own. Many people just let the timing belt go until it finally breaks. It won't damage anything on our cars, but you'll be stranded and have to get a tow. If you take off the upper timing belt cover you can see part of the belt and get a general idea of it's condition. If it doesn't look cracked or frayed, I'd be inclined to leave it. If you do decide to replace it ask around at a few places and tell them that the water pump doesn't need to be replaced along with it.

$175 for replacing a differential cover gasket? It's only a few dollars and takes way less than an hour.

I have an automatic so I'm not sure about the oil leaking INTO the transmission, but I'm not sure how they would know since it's internal. By axle do they mean differential? Maybe people with standard transmissions will be able to explain how you would be able to tell. I think they even use the same kind of oil.

[marlinh]

Those prices seem high to me as well, but I never take my car to a shop either. I do all my own work, except exhaust. I have a trusted place that gives me a good price. Have you actually had any of this work done yet? I would definitely shop around. Some of these jobs are quite easy to do yourself or with a friend who can give you advice. The people on this forum are quite helpful. Maybe someone here lives near you and can offer assistance. It is true that shops tend to take advantage of women (and men as well) who appear to know very little about car repair.

The axle seal leaking into the transmission doesn't make sense. They may have meant axle seal leaking. That will be external, and if you crawl under and look, or place a piece of cardboard under your car overnight and look at how much oil has dripped onto it, you can see how bad the leak is. Same with the differential cover. If it is very small, then keep an eye on the trans level and you can go for a long time without having to fix it. You can get that checked by a lube shop for minimal charge and don't let them freak you out.

The timing belt can be checked by removing the upper timing cover. You just need a ten mm socket to remove the bolts. One bolt is behind the water pump pulley, but if you just pull the cover back, gently, you can see part of the belt. You won't be able to inspect the teeth, but the condition of the outside of the belt will give you some idea of it's condition. If all you see are tiny cracks, then do it soon.

Don't let these shops scare you. They work on the fear factor for unsuspecting customers. Read all you can on this forum and be more informed about decisions you make. These cars are very reliable and you will not be disappointed with your purchase. I recommend looking for another shop or learning how to do some of your repairs yourself. It is very rewarding. Good luck.

[ARCHINSTL]

Incidentally, if you were charged for "serpentine belts" - they ain't that. They are simple V-belts, which if you have AC, you have three, and the average cost at a chain parts store (AutoZone, Advance, etc.) for all three is about $30-40 (less with no AC). And - those prices I mentioned are for quality belts, not "house brands" - not that all "house brands" are bad - I just used those for examples.
I think "serpentine belts" are much more expensive, but not sure (never owned a vehicle with one).
So - if parts cost $40 (more at any shop), you could have been charged as much as $210 for labor? Totally ridiculous!

As to $750 for a partial brake job (front brake hoses, flushing, and new rear wheel cylinders)? Totally a rip-off!
See https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4& ... min#p20869
I did complete rear stuff, loaded calipers, all new hoses, supplies, turning the drums, and a tool for $289. Granted, this was in 2006 and prices have prob risen a tad, but the little amount of labor and just a few parts for your partial job is, again, just ridiculous. As an example, and quoted in my link above, I was quoted $900 for ALL that I did - not just a partial job.
Tom M.

[marlinh]

Up here the alternator belt is a serpentine belt. But, the only one the rest are v-belts.

[Mark]

I think mine is a serpentine (the flat kind?). When I go to a parts store they offer me both and ask what kind I need. They're both about the same price if I remember (less than $20).

[dlb]

Done so far:
- Big crack in driver's side front strut. Recommend replacing both in front. - $680
- Both front brake lines are cracking; recommend replacing both lines and flushing brake fluid. AND (later discovery) replace wheel cylinders which are leaking brake fluid into brakes. - $475
- Needs new muffler. AND (later discovery) extension pipe from catalytic converter is rotten, needs replacement too. -$300
- Serpentine belts are going out; replace all - $250

They also reported the following:
- Axle seal is leaking oil into transmission. Recommend fixing in 3-6 months (meantime they will top of fluid and make sure there's plenty in there so it's not running dry)(??) - $850
- When was the timing belt last replaced? If it hasn't since 100K, recommend replacing. - $700
- Front differential is seeping fluid. Recommend resealing cover and changing fluid within 3-6 months - $175

welcome, emily. here's my take on everything you mentioned. generally, the prices are super high and i wouldn't go back to that shop.

- cracked front struts doesn't sound right. they maybe needed new inserts, springs, or both. might just be the terminology you're using, which is fine.
- cracked brake lines and leaky rear wheel cylinder are are common on old cars, excellent things to check and replace.
- that's a fair price for a muffler and cat.
- like everyone else has mentioned, that is a gouge an a half on those belts. if that included the timing belt, i'd say it was fair but you mentioned that the shop only recommended doing the timing belt later, so that really, really sucks.

- a leaky oil seal means oil is coming out of the trans. it's a $5 part and only takes an 1-2 hours to do (3-4 if you're totally new to wrenching) so that price is about 2 and a half gouges.
- you can easily check the timing belt by just removing the plastic cover and looking at it. as long as there are no cracks, tears, etc, it's fine. and this is a non-interference engine so even if the belt ever did break, it would not damage the engine. you would just need a tow home or to another shop...not the shop that gave you these quotes.
- the front diff is part of the trans and it's unlikely the cover is leaking. if an axle seal is leaking, that is probably the source of the oil and it has gotten on the diff cover.

all in all, i suggest you and/or your partner buy a modest set of tools that are on sale and use this forum to help you learn to work on the car yourself. as others mentioned, it's a beautifully simple car to work on which makes it perfect as a first wrenching experience. that way, you will save a LOT of money, gain extremely useful knowledge, and know that the work on the car was done properly and with care, which is never guaranteed from any shop. also, most shops have zero knowledge or interest in carbureters anymore and do not have the abilities to correctly diagnose or service them, even though carbs are quite simple. so like i said, consider getting some tools and making a project out of it. these cars are capable, reliable, economical, and cheap and easy to work on, so they are well worth it.

[keith]

I have to agree with all the above. But heres the thing, you do have an older car and it will need maintenance from time to time, but this is a really great car, I wish mine hadn't gotten wrecked. You need to treat this car as a business transaction, because that is what it is, and good business practices dictate that you get several opinions and estimates for any needed repairs.

You need to get written diagnostics and estimates. It appears that you may have gotten verbal diagnostics and estimates for the things you listed because some of the terminology is pretty vague and somewhat less than professional. This could be due to your translation of what was said because you are not a professional mechanic yourself. With written diagnosis and estimates, you can copy what was written and we can give you better advice. You also need to check with friends and co-workers for opinions on mechanics in your area. Be very wary of the $1000 estimate for urgently needed repairs, that seems to be the favorite number for shops that are of questionable honesty. You see that a lot at shops that offer an "oil change special with free inspection".

Once you have found a good shop that offers accurate diagnostics and reasonable estimates, then do all your business with them, including oil changes and other routine maintenance. Of course the other alternative is to be willing to learn to do all these things yourself. The exception will be the exhaust system, they original, all welded exhaust is no longer available, but a good muffler shop can fabricate one for about $200 to $250 installed.

The front strut itself is probably not cracked, but the upper strut mount might be. KYB makes a good cartridge insert that can be put inside the original strut housing for about $50 and expect another $50 for the upper strut mount and about $100 for labor for each side, total about $400 for the fronts.

If the rear wheel cylinders are leaking, you may need new shoes and drums. That would run a couple hundred, the front brakes do not have wheel cylinders, they have calipers. BTW, all brake lines check (have small cracks), that does not mean the brake lines are in eminent danger of failing. But if they are over 10 years old, I would change them.

The timing belt takes about three hours to change on this engine so $450 would be about right for a new belt and tensioner. If you have power steering, the accessory belts can be a pain to replace because of the power steering pump, that can be an hour job as well, but if the timing belt is being done, then do the accessory belts at the same time and there should only be a charge for parts, no labor. I would also replace the crankshaft oil seal at that time as it should only add about $20, and these seals are bad about leaking oil as they get older. If you are not leaking oil from the bottom front of your engine, (qt/500 miles) then the timing belt and this seal were probably changed not too long ago.

[Petros]

welcome to the forum.

too bad you did not come here before you forked over that much money. All of those prices are way out of line, replacing an axle seal for $800?!?!? Around here you can have your whole transmission rebuilt for that!!! Replacing the seal should be more like $80 or less.

They are either crooks or incompetents. Or both. I have wrenched on old cars for 40 years (since I was 14 years old) and have also worked in repair shops, and unless you live somewhere that overhead is about 2 time higher than everywhere else, than this is a rip off. Not just high, but criminally high.

For example, I can replace a front struts with hand tools in about an hour each, paying retail for the strut, and if I charge you a typical shop rate of $90 and hour, that would come to $150 per side. many will charge about $200 since they also make money on the parts too, but $340 per side it a rip off.

when my daughter moved to Austin with the recently rebuilt CRX I did for her, the only part of the brakes I did not replace was the brake master cylinder. After six months the brakes were mushy, I figured it must need the master, new ones were $56 retail from Autozone, it is a 45 min job total. I said see if you can get local shop to do it for $200. She got three quotes from shops locals recommended: $600, $700, and $850. I thought I can fly there, do the brake master replacement, go out to dinner with my daughter, and fly home. If she paid for it it would save her over $300. As it was I found a local list member in Texas that was willing to do it for a great price. Many of the shops gave her lists of "other" parts that needed replacement, most of which I knew were almost new since I had installed them. A gang of thieves, all of them.

I do not pay for any maintenance, nor anyone in my family. I will not do business with crooks and incompetents. And doing it myself is actually faster, and much much cheaper.

My daughter was just aghast at how many nice people at these shops were willing to lie to her face and take her money. She was uncertian as how to keep from getting ripped off, it means you need to know as much (or more) than the so-called "professionals", to know if what any of them is saying is valid. Readers Digest magazine did a big "expose" of auto repair shops some years ago, randomly stopping at shops all over the country complaining of vague car problems, over 90 percent of the time they were fed outright lies.

to keep from getting ripped off, you really need to learn something about your car, and get your hands dirty. You will save yourselves many thousands of dollars, and likely a time too because time spent dealing with the shop, pick-up drop off and the hassle of being without a car, etc. you do not have to do.

Also, you do not need a "master mechanics" tool set, I bought one of those in high school and now 35 years later there are some tools I have NEVER used. The cheapest way to assemble some good tools is go to pawn shops and second hand stores that sell tools, and look for the bins of indivual sockets and tools (not in sets) that they sell individually. Pick out only the good brands: craftsman, Proto, snap on, SK, Matco (there are a few others), and only buy these sockets and combination or open end wrenches: 8mm, 10 mm, 12mm, 14mm, 17mm, 19mm. Both deep and normal sockets all in 3/8 drive size, get several different length extensions and a good ratchet handle. Also get a large breaker bar, and size adapter, and if you intend to change front axles you will need a large 1/2" drive 30 mm socket (you may have to buy this new). Several size philips and flat screw drivers, a long "brake pliers" with the 45 degree angle jaws, and an adjustable wrench, and a torque wrench. That is everything you need to do most operations, plus jacks and jack stands. Most other larger tools you rarely need you can rent from Autozone. Those socket sizes btw, are the only ones I ever use on any Japanese car, some European cars you will also need a 13mm, and 15 and 16mm. but I have never even seen an 11 mm nut or bolt, but I have several of those sockets that came in sets. if they exist, they are very very rare.

And of coarse, were are all here to help you get through it all.

[Ace]

Emily, you have bought a high-mileage car which is developing various maintenance issues. My gut feeling is that this car is not going to be practical for you unless you know how to wrench on it yourself, or have a very good friend who can do the work for you. If you have to rely on professional mechanic$ to fix the car for you, they will rip you off and it will be a big money pit. They don't always fix things right and it will be one thing after another with a high-mileage car.

I have a 30 year old Tercel which I bought when it was less than a year old and now has 132,626 miles, relatively low for its age. I have substantial mechanical background and do all my own auto repairs. My Tercel has had relatively few issues during the 29 years I have owned it, because I have driven it gently.

If this car will maybe motivate you to develop real mechanical skills then it could be a great learning experience for you. But if you don't aspire to become a mechanic I think you may do better to save up money for a newer car with lower mileage on it. It really is not practical to pay "professional" mechanics to fix up an old car for you; that is why non-mechanic people sell off these older cars.