can't budge 2 Starter Bolts

[AlexWho]

Ugh. '85 Toy.Tercel (FWD: Automatic) needs a new starter. Tried liquid wrench,
PB Blaster and swearing: can't budge the bolts. O'reilleys" 'use a torch,' use leverage'.
--Valve cover gasket leaking oil, that happens to be in the general area of...the
starter. Fire?! I'd rather pay a brawny or brainier Tercel member than my local mechanic.
(Local mechanic on first look over of my car: 'it's fuel injected.' Uh, No...)
I live in N.Greenwood. Let me know if you can help.
The Top bolt looks clean: no rust. The bottom bolt is a mystery: can barely see it.

[dlb]

keep trying, they'll come. did you let them sit while soaked in pb blaster? it often takes a day or two for that stuff to penetrate. do you have an impact gun? i have a 7.5 or 8.5 amp one that works well for most things, and is more than enough for 14 mm bolts like the ones on the starter.

if you don't have an impact gun, get a length of pipe that will fit over the handle of a ratchet and use it as a cheater pipe. the longer the handle is, the more mechanical leverage you have. if you don't have a cheater pipe, put the ring end of a 14 mm wrench on the bolt. then put the ring end of another wrench in the open end of the first. now you can use the second wrench as a sort of cheater extension for the first. here's a pic of what i mean.



if they're still really stubborn, bounce the ratchet or wrench with medium strength strikes. too much torque and you might strip or snap off the bolts.

[AlexWho]

Thanks for the tips and encouragement.
I just saturated the bolts last night...so the bolts haven't had time to 'loosen.'
OK: will give it time, and try leverage.

[marlinh]

Be careful when using 12 point wrenches or sockets on stuck bolts. If they slip you can strip or damage the head of the bolt you are trying to remove. Then it becomes increasingly difficult to get the bolts off.

[dlb]

Be careful when using 12 point wrenches or sockets on stuck bolts. If they slip you can strip or damage the head of the bolt you are trying to remove. Then it becomes increasingly difficult to get the bolts off.

i agree. i don't like wrenches much, primarily because i'm lazy and like how much quicker a ratchet is, but you're right that the open end and even the 12-point ring ends can be prone to stripping. i hate using the open ends on anything, the only thing worse is a crescent wrench. funny thing is my dad loves and pretty much exclusively uses crescent wrenches on everything. it's a bone of contention between us.

[Petros]

ATF makes much better penetrating oil than anything else, put it on both ends and let it site overnight. Also, you might jack the car up and crawl under it and take a look from the bottom. There are several items mounted next to the lower starter bolt and you want to make sure you are trying to loosen the correct one. the trans ground strap and the reed valve and resonator chamber is mounted right in the same place, and these are usually the ones that get stuck. You might get a bit more wiggle room from underneath too.

[Mark]

You could try replacing your distributor o-ring with an old, flattened one like mine. The resultant steady oil leak saturates the starter area with a continuous flow of oil, which ensures that the bolts are always easy to take off. I've tried submitting this idea to a few car manufacturers and I'm waiting for them to get back to me.

[dlb]

You could try replacing your distributor o-ring with an old, flattened one like mine. The resultant steady oil leak saturates the starter area with a continuous flow of oil, which ensures that the bolts are always easy to take off. I've tried submitting this idea to a few car manufacturers and I'm waiting for them to get back to me.

LOL

mark, i have a surplus of new dizzy o-rings if you want one. toyota charged like $5 for one so i just took one to a hydraulic shop and got a bunch from them for like 20 cents. PM your mailing address if you want one or two.

[Mark]

I was actually considering replacing it to get rid of one of the drips on my driveway. I have a spare distributor so I'll probably take the o-ring off of it and use it to compare with available generic o-ring sizes. I assume there's nothing special with it's composition and a regular o-ring will work. My worry is that, with my luck, I'll have timing problems or something afterwards.

[dlb]

that's a good idea for o-rings. you're correct that they're nothing special and generic stuff works fine.

i posted these directions on removing/replacing the dizzy a while back. sounds like you already know what you're doing but just in case.

https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7664#p56030

[Petros]

you will have timing issues if you do not get it back in the way it came out. The best way might be to mark the position of the distributor at the bolt, and the position of the rotor in the distributor (you have to remove the cap first). Without turning the engine, you have to get the distributor AND rotor back in the engine in the same place. iF you can do that than it should have the same timing as before. It is easy to get the rotor one gear tooth off because there is a helix in the gear and it turns are you put the distributor into its place. Might be a good idea to check the timing after you get it together even if you do everything just right.

[Mark]

Thanks for the info. I was thinking of doing this job this evening if it's not raining too much. That's good info about the helical gear drive. I didn't realise that and wouldn't have taken that into account. I did buy an old timing light and I'll check the timing after since I've never checked it since I bought the vehicle a few years ago. For economy I was thinking of setting the timing to about 7 degrees instead of the factory 5. I'm hesitant to set it to the full recommended 10 degrees since it seems like tht's playing it too close to the edge.

[Mark]

This thread has gone off-topic, but re: advancing the timing, would the increased cylinder pressures possibly negatively affect the head gasket lifespan? -Especially if it's old to begin with. My fear is that if the head gasket is barely holding on, the increased pressures could be the last straw. -Also, when the timing advances when you're driving (centrifugally, or with vacuum), how do you know that it now won't advance too far? Do you rev it up in the driveway while watching the timing light?

[dlb]

no, your head gasket will be fine. the more likely damage from over-advanced timing is craters on the piston face and bottom of the head in the combustion chambers due to predetonation but all you have to do is listen for pinging. if you hear pinging when the engine is warmed up and under load, retard the timing slightly and try driving it again. it will take a lot of pinging over a long time to damage anything though so don't sweat it too much. i had predetonation issues with my first terc for at least a year before i sorted it out but it didn't cause any problems.

however, if you get predetonation from simply advancing your timing to 10* btdc, you have other issues going on, like vacuum leaks causing a lean mixture or carbon build up in the combustion chambers.

the two vacuum advance diaphragms can only advance the timing by set amounts. the inner diaphragm (closest to the dizzy) only advances about 8* and that's at idle and hwy cruising. the outer diaphragm (furthest from the dizzy) advances about 15*, and only at hwy cruising. i may have mentioned before that the easiest way to test these is to put a hose on each and suck. if you can suck air through, the diaphragm is broken and a vacuum leak. the hose going to it must be plugged until you can replace the advance unit. the diaphragms are separate though so one may work while the other does not.

another good thing to test that is easy is to remove the dizzy cap and then try turning the dizzy rotor counter clockwise. there should be a small amount of spring-loaded play. if not, the advance mechanism in the dizzy is gummed up with dirty grease and must be disassembled, cleaned, and re-lubed. not a hard job, and absolutely integral to proper timing. i had one terc that i set the timing on and it ran like shit. looked at everything else but all seemed fine. finally re-checked the timing and it was now at 0* btdc. the bolt was done up tight though and i knew i had set it to 10* btdc so i looked further and found the advance mechanism was gummed up so good i had to wrestle the damn thing apart with vice grips. finally got it done, and that dizzy wound up in the next project car. i'll have to take pics the next time i do it and post a guide for it on here.

[Petros]

running the timing at lower advances risks damage to the exhaust valves, I have seen several Tercel engines with the exhaust valve broke free and embedded itself in the head and piston. this was timing set at the factory stock 5 deg. If this happens you have to replace the whole engine, it is far easier to replace a head gasket. Engine and the exhaust runs cooler with more spark advance, more of the fuel is burned when the exhaust valve opens.

If your head gasket is good, it will not harm it at all to run 10 deg BTDC, I have owned older pre-smog cars that ran at 16 to 22 deg BTDC, 10 is not "on the edge" at all. If your head gasket is damaged/marginal than it is only a matter of time before you need to replace it anyway, and advancing the timing will not make any difference (as long as you are not getting pre-ignision or ping). Running hot is what damaged the head gasket, it will run cooler with more spark advance. You will also get better fuel economy and burn less fuel as well. More of the fuel energy is available to make power.