Engine Rebuild Crankshaft Questions

[dlb]

i like cork gaskets for the oil pan and have had good luck with them. after making sure the bottom of the block is clean and dry, i apply a light but thorough coat of black silicone to it and stick the gasket to it. then i silicone the mating surface of the oil pan, align it to the gasket and block, and hand tighten the bolts. i then use a staggered approach where i'll tighten a bolt on on left side, then one on the right, then one at the front, then one on the back, until i've gone all the way around. i make sure to follow a pattern so i don't miss any. then i repeat the process until all are done up but it's VERY important with cork gaskets not to overtighten them, as they need only be barely snug. also, do go light with the sealant. gobs of it can cause problems and it looks like hell.

i have no experience with oil pumps so i have no advice for that, sorry.

[Petros]

I like to use the gasket sealer on the pan side of the gasket, and than use a thick coat of silver anti-seize compound on the engine side. It will seal good and if you need to remove the pan again, it will break clean off the block side with minimal cleaning required. If you can remove it without damaging the gasket you can reuse it again, saves all the cleaning time and a few dollars for a new gasket.

I would not bolt it on like that, it will have high chance of leaking. Get it installed with all the crews and two nuts very loosely, than tighten from the center of the long sides first, working your way towards the ends alternating each side and front and back. this way you compress and squeeze the gasket towards the ends. the other way if the gasket is larger than the pan you trap a wrinkle in it if you do the ends first and work toward the middle. Once all are tight I than work my way around and double check all are tight to the same amount of torque (based on feel).

BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO OVER TIGHTEN the pan bolts. they do not take much, the factory torque is too high, it will damage the gasket. I use a 1/4" drive socket and hold the ratchet head, or even better a screw driver handle on the 1/4" extension (with a universal joint on it). They should hold just past "snug". Over-tightening the pan bolts will distort the thin metal pan and over compress the gasket and cause a leak.

If you are putting the pan on when the engine is still in the car there are several pan bolts you will need to use an open end wrench because you can not get a socket on it (over the differential), so you will have to be careful to get the same amount of gasket compression on these bolts as on the others. Also, you will have to put the oil pick inside the pan and install the 2 nuts and 2 bolts that hold on the oil pick up with the pan hanging loose. there is no way to wiggle the pan into place with the oil pick-up in place when the engine is in the car. BTW, if you unbolt the front engine mounts and jack the front of the engine as high you can it will give you more room to work over the cross member.

good luck

[DanT]

Thanks very much again for the help on this. Just returned with a new cork gasket as well as other supplies. Cleaned the pan last night so that it is spotless. (Scraped off the silicon and used a brass brush on a drill to get every thing totally clean on the lip. Will do a final wipe with lacquer thinner before putting the gasket on.) Have all the supplies needed now to put this together over the weekend: plastigauge, bore brushes, gaskets, etc. Oil pump is suppose to arrive on Friday or Satruday. THANKS so mush for steering me in the right direction!

Dan

[celtglen]

... I spent 4 yr in USAF working on the U-2 spy a/c and 20 yr working at a Cessna dealer.....

My Dad had a Stinson I think the Voyager, he taught me to fly it----- I was about 19 or 20. Noisy little bugger but fun especially with my Red Setter along for the ride..

CG

[larry mcgrath]

have a friend that has a stinson 108 station wagon, needs a engine. for my 2 cents i realy dont like cork gaskets, i use black RTV what ever blows your hair back rtv wont leak when done right

[rer233]

+1!

[DanT]

Getting ready to put this back together soon. Oil pump from Toyota has "AISIN 7" in the casting on the upper right, and Toyota on the lower left. (Also K 15 under that scratched into the metal.) I know that Aisin made this exact same model of pump for GEO and a lot of US cars at the same time, so just looks like this one was made to Toyota specs. Toyota told me on the phone that the oil seal was included... but it is not there. Just ordered that seal from Azone as Timken 223235. Expected to arrive later today. Do not have an SST to press this in, but expect that if I use a block of wood and a hammer with grease around the seal should be ok?

Is it a good idea to use anti-seize on the bolts that will get torqued... or not? Seem to remember hearing this was a bad idea.

Petros: I think you might be right on this: "Looking at your oil pump failure does not look like a new pump to me, it is almost certainly a used oil pump. the baked on oil film takes years to develop, if it was only driven a few hundred miles it should look like a new oil pump after you clean it off. I wonder if the shop just used the oil pump that came on the replacement engine."

After rebuilding my 83 block with a crankshaft kit and replacement #4 rod... and having trouble with the #4 rod bearing again (due to confusion of different rod and crank changes in mid year), I think the shop bought this 86 "running" block from a salvage yard... with 76 k on it... to make sure they did not have trouble with the crank and bearings again... by using that crank and rod set. They put in new bearings on a system that was already working. Since the oil pump supposedly had not seen metal shavings in that block it would seem reasonable to use it... I think? I have not called the shop back on this, but I think you are right on this. I only have the invoice from the first rebuild... since that was my only expense... so I do not have a breakdown on the second rebuild job. I saw a new Mellor oil pump on the first job... but that pump would have been trashed when the #4 bearing went out the second time. Since I did not see the second invoice I assumed they bought another pump... and it did not occurr to me that they bought a working motor for the second rebuild.

Thanks again for all of the help with this.

Dan

[DanT]

BAD NEWS:

There is damage to the #3 main bearing and some metal transfer to that journal. Series of 6 photos attached. Everything else looks fine except for this #3... which is both good news and yet not good enough news. In summary:

- Camshaft looks good.
- Cleaned galley from oil pump to oil filter. Nothing in there at all.
- All other rod bearings and main bearings and journals look fine. Found oil fild on all of these bearings when pulling it apart.
- Metal transfer in #3 may have stayed right there...as there was not oil circulation it appears.

Mechanism for failure of #3 main bearing?

a) Is this the first bearing to get oil from the main galley coming out of the oil pump...and a location that feeds the mains in front and behind it... since #3 is in the middle... and might be the first to go dry? (Looked for a diagram of the galleys in the FSM and also on-line but have not located this yet.)

b) The rear thrust bearing shows wear also. Perhaps the thrust bearing created the heat to damage bot the thrust bearing and the main bearing? (The #3 main is the only main bearing with thrust bearings and the only bearing that was damaged.)

Regardless of how it happened, I could use some help decided on the best approach forward. First decision is whether this journal can be polished in place (#1 option below). Or if I need to pull the engine to fix this problem (#2 below).

1) Is it possible to polish this journal in place?

- Petros said earlier that he polishes the journals with 800 paper and solvent/wd40 with a string wrapped around the journal. I have done a fair amount of body work, so am familiar with using 800 paper. The metal transfer appears to be relatively small (from what I can tell, see attached pictures) and there are no deep groves in the journal... only a few relatively small scratches.

- There is enough space about the journal to run a piece or paper around the top (cut to the width of the journal) and to work this paper back and forth while my buddy turns the crank with a wrench... to distribute the force more evenly. Or perhaps cut the paper to 1/2 or 1/3 the width of the journal and wrap it around a few times and then work the paper. I do not think there is enough room to run a string up and around the top... but maybe. My guess is that space up top is about 2x the bearing diameter right now, 4mm to 5mm? (I have the other main caps/bearings holding the crank up, but not tightened. Hope this is not a problem.)

- The #3 journal has a straight shot in from the bottom, unlike some of the other mains.

- If it is possible to polish this journal, then what about the vertical surface of the crank where the rear thrust bearing has made contact. (Hard to get a picture of this, but that surface is not showing metal transfer, and I am not feeling grooves with my fingernail.)

- If the above is possible, do I need to be concerned about measuring the front/rear fit of the crankshaft after putting the thrust bearings in?

- All of the other bearings look good. Any reason to replace all bearings... or just the #3 main plus the thrust bearing?

2) If I need to pull the engine, then I have read about this procedure and have a clue about what is involved. ( I did replace an engine in a 77 Chevette in my parent's garage one time... about 30 years ago.) My buddy will help me to pull the engine, but I would like to avoid the extra work if this is not needed. Engine hoist would rent for $38 per day here, so would want to get organized and do this over a weekend. That said, before we go there, is the easier path forward to polish in place or to pull the engine?

Thanks for the advice on this one.

Dan

[Petros]

Your thrust bearing looks fine, these are normal marks, after it is back together check for clearance with feeler gauge per FSM (or end play). Your crank journal looks fine, just needs to be polished, this can be done with the engine in the car, no need to remove the engine. You should be able to slip the upper half of the bearing out from between the crank and the block to inspect it. Than you should be able to slip a strip of wet and dry around the crank journal and polish it. It does not look bad, cleaning it up should not take much. After the journal is polished , clean the bearing, and plasti-gauge the clearnace. If it is within spec no reason to replace it, even with scoring on it. The size of these bearings makes them tolerated a lot of damage before there is an issue, all of the connecting rods are the critical ones.

Make sure you use a lot of solvent spray and compressed air to clean up where you were sanding to get all the grit out before you do install the new bearing.

do not but grease on the oil seal to install it. either install it dry, or I like to put gasket sealer around the outside to "glue" it into position. Put some grease on the crankshaft side to lube it so it does not get damaged on start-up.

I have never used a seal SST, you can either use a plastic mallet and carefully tap it into place, or you can take a short peice of plastic pipe close to the outer dia of the seal and tap it with a hammer. I doubt anti seize on the oil pump will harm anything, but these bolts seldom rust or bind, so likely best to just install them clean (clean out the bolt holes with solvent spray and blow them out). again, do not over tighten any of the bolts.

[DanT]

Petros,

This is a huge relief! Really glad to hear that I can polish this journal in the car. (Just sold my 85 on Monday and am on a bicycle until the 83 is back on the ground.) This all makes sense to me, but I have never rebuilt an engine before, so not sure what is ok and not ok. I greatly appreciate the advice on this.

Have studied the appropirate sections in the FSM. A few more questions:

1) This car is an 83, but the block is an 86. I have a dog-eared copy of the 83 FSM, and just downloaded the pdf for the 85 FSM posted on the T4 site. I did not see an 86 manual on the site? It is my understanding that the 85 internal engine specs should match the 86 closer than the 83, yes? There are some subtle differences that I noted so far:

- rod bearing torque was 26-32 ft-lb and now is 36
- main bering torque was 40-47 and now is 43
- thrust and main and rod bearing clearances are similar

2) To check thrust clearance both FSMs show a dial indicator (which I might be able to rent at AZone) in combination with a large screwdriver to move the crankshaft back and forth. You suggest using a feeler gauge. Do I need to get some kind of plastic feeler gauge to insert between the thrust bearing and the crankshaft, used in a similar manner to setting valves?

- Standard clearance is .02 mm to .185mm
- Max is .3 mm

3) I have a number of choices for bearing purchases, and have narrowed this down. Advice on the following choices would be appreciated.

It appears that I only need to replace the #3 main bearing and the rear thrust bearing. Nobody except Toyota sells only one main bearing. So if I go this route I would order one main bearing from my local dealer for $20.56 and order a set of thrust bearings from NAPA for $8.55 (Made by Altrom International #SEP 3926AF. I was told by NAPA that Altrom supplies Toyota with their OEM parts.Toyota wants $30.86 for the thrust bearing set.) Assuming that all of my other bearings are good (with less than 1k on an engine that got warmed up), is there any reason not to go this route?

Toyota lists 3 different "standard' main bearing sizes: 01, 02, 03. I am pretty sure that I want the 02? Part number for the 02 is 11711-16010-02, converts to 11701-15050-02

If I start replacing any more bearings, (which I do not think I need to do, but would consider at this point), then I would be inclined to replace all of the thrusts and mains and rod bearings with Altrom International bearings for about $106... plus time to pull and replace all uppers... as I was told these bearings should compare to OEM. ( I could replace all bearings for $60 using "Sealed Power" aftermarket bearings also available from NAPA, but since I do not know what brand is in there now, not sure that I am gaining any ground that way.)

NAPA sells "Sealed Power" aftermarket bearings at good prices. (Which appears to be the most common 'local" brand, because AZone and Advance sell the same sets at significantly higher prices.) NAPA also sells the Altrom International brand of bearings at slightly higher prices than their Sealed Power brand, and Altrom takes a little longer to get here.

Comments certainly would be appreciated from anyone with an opinion on this?

Thanks again!

Dan

[Petros]

the sealed power bearings are perfectly good, bearings very rarely give you issues, I would replace the set with the sealed power ones. that way the clearance should be all the same, make sure and check with plasti-gauge.

sounds like you are doing all the right things. Since you have an '86 motor, use the specs for that ('85 should be the same). Make sure everything if very clean before you bolt the bearing caps back in place, use assembly lube on the bearings before you bolt the cap on it (they sell it at the auto parts store).

before you start it after if is all together, top up with motor oil, unplug the distributor connector, and crank the engine until the oil light goes out (or your gauge comes off the peg). this primes the engine, bearings and all galleys with motor oil. than connect the distributor and start it up.

[DanT]

OK, that works for me. At $60 replacing all bearings with sealed power makes a lot of sense. Following is a lot of pricing information for bearings... to pass on to those who are interested...

Sealed power set of rod bearings is $25 at NAPA and $60 at Azone or Advance Autp Parts. Similar price discrepancy for the mains, and only NAPA carries the thust bearings at $12.95... suggesting the thrust bearings maybe do not get changed with all of the rebuilds. So NAPA it is.

The rod bearings in the engine now are stamped with numbers and letters that certainly suggest these were made by Federal Mogul.

Rod bearing is 1026RAU F/M Date stamp is 08 10

Federal Mogul is the sole manufacturer of the Sealed Power line, so I am guessing that these are sealed power berings in the engine now. And that the Sealed Power bearings that I purchase will have this F/M stamp also. We will see...

http://www.federalmogul.com/en/Aftermar ... neBearing/

Also noticed that AZone was selling individual Clevite rod bearings for $3.99 each... "CB1361P"... until depleted... ($4x4=$16 for the set)... while also selling a set of sealed power for $60. Looking into the Clevite rod bearings further I found a full set for 7.95 from Summit Racing... that describes this discontinued P series bearing further:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLE-CB1361P/

OK, now that sounds a bit too cheap... gotta wonder...

Rock Auto lists 5 different suppliers for rod bearings and main bearings... with Sealed Power priced toward the top end... which might translate to better quality? Or at least makes me feel better (first is rod bearings and second is mains)...

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carco ... ttype,5212
Clevete/Perfect Circle $3.12 (for a set! Wholesaler closeout with 11 sets remaining)
DNJ Engine $16.65
Glyco $36.79
Sealed Power $43.79 (NAPA sells for $31.49, no shipping)
AE $48.79

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carco ... ttype,5220
Beck/Arneley $9.91
Clevite/Perfect Circle $21.79
DNJ Engine $24.79
Sealed Power $31.79 (NAPA sells for $24.99 with no shipping)
Glyco $74.79

Unless somebody sees a reason not to go with Sealed Power... then I am on my way to ordering all bearings from sealed power from NAPA...

Dan

[Petros]

Clevite/Perfect Circle also makes good parts, I have used them before, I would use them in my own car. They might just be discontinued, not poor quality (not like there is a big demand for 30 year old 3a engine parts right now). I will never buy Beck/Arneley parts again no matter how cheap, quality control has gone down hill.

But between mail order buying local you are not talking a lot of $ difference. You will get them faster from Napa and if there are any issues with the parts they can correct it faster as well.

[DanT]

How do I measure the crank foward and rear thrust clearance... of do I assume things are ok there and let that one go? The FSM lists standard clearance as .02 to .185 mm (less than .2 of 1 mm). Max is .3 mm. I have been told the only way to measure a clearance that small is with a dial indicator (with the appropriate attachment to the block) as shown in the FSM.

Parts stores do not rent dial indicators, and the dial indicator with the attachments would be quite expensive to purchase for only one day of use. Apparently this clearance is just too small for any kind of plastic feeler gauge.

Using the number stamped on the thrust washers, 1695T, I was able to determine that the current thrust washers are standard size made by ACL. The new thrust bearings will be standards made by sealed power.

I cannot be positive that the previous shop checked the thrust clearance, but they did plastigauge the bearings, and the engine did run for 600 miles. Apparently that shop also enough to buy a used toyota engine the second time so they could work with standard bearings and an unaltered crank. I want to believe they had the dial indicator to check the thrust, but not sure if that meausement would even apply at this point. Also, it was the thrust bearing that did show wear when the engine was running dry on oil.

Just not sure what is reasonable approach?

Advice on this one would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Dan

[DanT]

I just got off the phone with a friend who once designed and built microscopes... to see if he had a dial indicator. He is almost positive that he does. I will know tomorrow. Next step would be to build some kind of bracket to hold the thing in place... using the bolt holes in the block from the oil pump I would presume. Is this worth the effort to do... or is there an easier way to the finish line?

Thanks.

Dan