Engine Rebuild Crankshaft Questions

[DanT]

I am tyring to get the bolt off of the end of the crankshaft right now. (It is not coming off easily). Can someone please tell me if this is reverse thread or not?

Also, the FSM says to secure the camshaft to loosen the crank bolt. I think in the past that I jammed a socket extension bar in the hole in the camshaft where it meets the casting to keep the camshaft from turning. Is this ok?

If anyone could please respond with this information, would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks.

Dan

[larry mcgrath]

Dan an impact works best, however if not available remove pulley and instal 2 long bolts in pulley,put an extension on breaker bar with a bar between bolts and extion alow pully to turn and lock up pully against frame -bereak loss bolt( BOLT IS RIGHT HAND THREAD ) I hope this helps Larry

[DanT]

Larry,

I got the bolt off the end of the pulley and then came back to check this post. Yes, now I know the bolt is right hand thread. The method I used was similar, and it did work. I took an 8 inch piece of 2 inch strap steel and drilled out the center with a hole large enough for the socket. Then drilled a hole for each of the bolts that usually are used for the wheel puller. Used short bolts to bolt that plate on top of the pulley. Put long 2 inch pipe on the end of the strap steel and pinned the pipe. The bolt did give after that. Not a wimpy bolt to loosen though!

FSM just says to secure the camshaft and remove the crank shaft pulley. Yah right. I think I ran into this once before, but it was a long time ago... to change an oils seal behind that pulley. Used a similar approach I think... but no longer had that fabricated tool. Also, could not remember which way the bolt turned!

To pull the pulley I think I am on the way to Autozone to get a free rental wheel-puller. Let me know if there is any other way, but I assume this would be the best for the next step?

Thanks for the quick response. Vey mich apprecieate the help and confirmation on this!

Dan

[larry mcgrath]

wheel puller is the right puller,sometimes you need to smack the center bolt with a hammer to get the pulley moving. your headed in the right direction .

[xirdneh]

To pull the pulley I think I am on the way to Autozone to get a free rental wheel-puller. Let me know if there is any other way, but I assume this would be the best for the next step?

Thanks for the quick response. Vey mich apprecieate the help and confirmation on this!

Dan

a thick piece of steel or alum flat bar
with two holes to match pulley threaded holes
pull it like pulling a steering wheel
i put the pulley bolt back in but only screwed in abt one quarter distance
put something (socket) between flat bar and bolt
tighten two bolts till pulley moves

[Petros]

once you have the bolt out usually you can tap the pulley hard a few times with a plastic mallot (or something soft) and it will usuallly wiggle off. It is rare you need a full gear puller to get it off, but sometimes they are stuck real good with corrosion or some contamination between the crank and the pulley. than a gear puller is pretty much the only way. when you tap on the pulley make sure you use some thing soft because it is cast iron and the thin part of the pulley can break chunks off, rubber or plastic mallot is best. pry bars or large screw drivers do not usually work, and risk damaging the pulley or the front of the oil pump housing.

cam sprocket usually comes off easy, use a large screw driver or socket extension through the spokes of the sprocket, bolt, like the crank pulley, is right hand thread as always (comes loose when turning country clock wise). That too should wiggle off easy after you get the bolt out.

[DanT]

Thanks guys. I got a wheel puller from Autozone and it looks like this will work. I like that method you use Xerdneh. I can see exactly what you are talking about with that socket. Nice. Could have saved me a trip to AutoZone, but I needed some things anyway, so no further behind. Great advice. Really appriciate this. Calling it a day now. We will find out what is inside of the oil pump tomorrow.

[DanT]

Drrr...rummmm... rolllll,,,

CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF OIL PUMP. See attached screen shot.

Petros pointed the finger here or to the relief valve earlier. And Larry mentioned that the single galley from the pump goes directly to the oil sensor hole first. This all fits with the story now... since NO oil was coming out the oil sensor hole whatsoever. The crankshaft was actually free to rotate inside of the failed oil pump without turning any pump gears whatsoever.

It appears this failure happened immediately when I started the engine on that cold January morning in Gary, Indiana. Perhaps thick oil stressed a faulty oil pump beyond the breaking point. (This was a new part under warranty and I am sending it back!)

So far the bearings and galleys in the rest of the engine suggest that any filings that were generated did not leave the oil pump. The #5 main bearing and #3 rod bearing that I checked so far look fine... though I have not checked all of the bearings yet. (Which bearing # is the first one to receive oil from the pump? I intend to pull all of them but this could be useful information.)

There is still an oil flm on all of the camshft lobes, and the cam looks fine, though I have not checked the cam bearings yet.

I did run the engine some for diagnostics inthe parking lot, as I was trying to figure out my oil light problem. But I never loaded the engine or put it into gear. I flatbedded the car to the shop when I could not get any oil pressure. Also, it was -10 F and the coolant was circulating. I say this because I am not seeing other damage in this engine and am wondering if I am missing something?

The engine did get warm I believe... which would explain why the local mechanic said, "the #5 rod bearing got hot" but the next step to his conclusion is clearly not the case, " and this cooked the #5 main bearing to cause the oil to stop". (#5 main looks good )

That mechanic never took the cap off that bearing to see what it looked like... nor did he pull the oil pump. So far it looks like the damage to the crank and bearings is minimal... to none... from what I have seen. But I do not claim to be an expert in these matters.

Also note, this is a standard crank with standard bearings. I know they used plastigauge when they put the bearings in. And it has been road-tested. The journals I have seen so far are smooth and shiny with no scratches at all... and my friend says the journals look brand new. The 2 bearings I have pulled so far look brand new also. (I took the #5 main, and #3rod bearings to a shop for another opinion and they said no reason to change them.)

Could use some advice on what to do, or not to do, next.

1) NEW OIL PUMP. According to 3 different Toyota parts sellers there are exactly 2 pumps left in the US: both are in the Toyota warehouse in California. Part #15100-15020. My local dealer wanted $273 for it but I told them I could get it from ToyotaPartsZone for $179 on-line. They came down to $190 with shipping +tax will be $205.http://www.toyotapartszone.com/oem/toyo ... 15020.html

This Aisin oil pump with the same part # goes for $62 with shipping included.
http://www.fcpimport.com/products/geo-t ... 5100-15020

My local Autozone sells a Melling pump for $94.99
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/ ... kyepZ93xki

Is the Toyota part that much better? Other places you would buy the pump?

2) Bearings. I have been told by others to remove every bearing and to plastiguage all of them... just to be sure. I think I can do this with the engine in the car? Can I just remove the bottom caps and look for damage there... and do not need to pull the uppers out also? (The uppers are awkward to get at with the engine in the car on jack stands in the garage, but not impossible.) And torque the caps. I have been told nothing gained to replace the bearings if they look good.

3) Check the camshaft bearings.

4) If I do not see any filings anywere in the bearings then it seems the galleys should be ok... I think? (I know the block was in acid before it was rebuilt... and the galleys were cleaned... and this engine was running without problems until the oil light came on.)

I cannot be positive, but it may be possible that the shop actually did a decent job on this rebuild ... and got caught with a faulty new oil pump. (Talked to Lenny at that shop today and he said he has only seen it twice before.) I did not notice them cutting corners... but I did see them going out of their way with extra customer support.

They are good friends of my sister... and I checked with another friend who runs the NAPA store who said they were one of the best shops in town. Even after taking a loss on the first rebuild... they actually bought a used motor for $600 and had it shipped in from out of state to rebuild the second one... at their own expense... which they did not have to do...since my block should have been ok. But they could not understand why the first rebuilt engine failed and they wanted to eliminate that variable. (I know that being good to people does not translate directly to mechanical ability, but I would like to remain open to the possibility that they might have done a decent job with both in this situation.)

Any thing that I am missing?

Really appreciate all of the help with this.

My best regards,

Dan

[larry mcgrath]

Wow I've seen this happen once in my aviation years but that was at -40 with 100w oil. anyway ide go with the melling oil pump, take a look at the rod and main bearings -to make sure their not scored , dont wory about the cam bearings they should be fine. this pump should have never failed under these conditions no way,this was a faulty part from the supplier, not the shops fault at all. These guys seem to have gone more than the extra mile in doing the right thing to right this problem, a rather rare thing to do now a days. Now you have figured this out this should go back together quick(the place that sold the shop the pump should go good for the pump and give you something for your labor, the parts store I deal with I know would )Larry

[larry mcgrath]

Follow up . all oil goes from the oil pump through the main oil galley into the oil filter and then through the main oil galley to mains ,rods pull the filter and cut it oprn with a hack saw and pull the element apart to look for metal (if there was any thing ahat came out of the pump it will be in the element) make sure you flush out the oil galley the part that goes from the threaded hole in the block (that the filter screws on to) foreward to the pump. The rest of the oil galleys will be fine Larry

[DanT]

Larry,

This information is really, really helpful. Thanks so much. Just knowing the circulation pattern of the oil is huge. Followed your logic easily about the path of the oil from the pump to the filter. Makes perfect sense, but not something I would be sure about otherwise. Good to know what not to worry about.

The oil pump that failed was a Melling M147, but I know that a faulty pump could have been made by any supplier. I do not have enough experience to know anything about the reputations of Aisin, Eristic, or Melling... which appear to be the names out there. ( I did notice that Melling has been making oil pumps for a long time, and the base price was one notch up from the other two.)

By the way, the neighbor who is helping with this project has also been in the aviation business... which he talks about a fair amount... and still has his pilot's license. (Michael is just not able to stay away from this toy engine when it is opened up.) The specs on those aviation engines and the levels of maintenance that is required is staggering (and costly$$$). I know that you guys know your machines inside and out... and you really need to in case things go wrong up in the air. Not the same as a parking lot!

Michael has owned a charter business and had 7 planes at one time... though he is out of the business now. Most of his recent experience was with King Air prop jets. (He let me fly one for a little while.) But he has been around a lot of piston aircraft also.

[larry mcgrath]

If you look in the FSM there should be a pix of the oil pressure system, so you can see on paper what the oil routing. I spent 4 yr in USAF working on the U-2 spy a/c and 20 yr working at a Cessna dealer I have a pilots leicence A/p and I/A tell your friend I said hello, Melling has been around a long time, but any more most parts are made in China which sucks. Let me know how this works out . We had a Lear 25 -2 690A turbo Comanders 2 cessna 441 Conquest turbo props and a C-340A that were the corps bussiness a/c plus fligh school a/c air ambulance,charter ,fire patrol and Repair station.Was a great job.

[DanT]

Sent a copy of your post over to Michael. I am sure he will enjoy reading it.

Ten minutes ago I ordered one of the last two remaining oil pumps available in the US that were made in Japan by Toyota... for $190 from my local dealer... instead of $273 they originally asked for it. Having that pump out on the front end of the engine will feel psychologically better going down the road. And I am not feeling like cutting any corners on oil pumps right now. Note that there were only 2 available 10 minutes ago, so if anyone else wants one you better move fast!

Since that last pump was a Mellor I just could not bring myself to put another one in there... even though I know the next pump should be totally fine. I had saved up enough money to put a short block in this car, so installing this original Toyota part is a way to celebrate the outcome of an incredible fiasco... that just might turn out ok.

[Petros]

Wow, just getting caught up now with your trouble. I have never seen a toyota oil pump fail catastrophically like that, I have seen them wear out and get so sloppy they can not produce enough pressure, but never just a failure like that.

Also, I have not been impressed with the quality of the modern melling produces. Aisin should be the same part that toyota buys, but the safest purchase would be to get a genuine toyota part. It is possible the aftermarket Aisin parts are made in low cost countries to a lower standard than what Toytoa demands, and the after market parts are actually different than what they sell to Toyota.

looking at your oil pump failure does not look like a new pump to me, it is almost certainly a used oil pump. the baked on oil film takes years to develop, if it was only driven a few hundred miles it should look like a new oil pump after you clean it off. I wonder if the shop just used the oil pump that came on the replacement engine. Even with oil that cold it should not have failed the oil pump, I suspect the pump was used, worn and marginal and yes the cold oil was the last straw that caused failure. Likely it would have failed soon anyway. make sure you carefully inspect the end of the crank for damage. I have used the used oil pump lots of time if it passed visual inspection, the factory pump is usually very long lasting and not prone to failure. IN your case I would go with a new pump, clean the oil galleys per larry's suggestion.

I have seen cam bear damaged after only a few min. of running with out oil pressure, easy to check, you just need to inspect them, if no metal transfer and aluminum is smooth in cam bore you are good. No measurment necessary. If in doubt post pictures here.

If all your bearings are smooth, the crank journals shinny, and there is no blue metal on crank journal, bearings smooth and within spec they are good and can be reused without issue (no magic here, if no damage and within clearance spec. they are good to go). You should just be able to inspect lower half of main bearings, the lower half is what takes the majority of load. Upper half of rod bearings take most of the load, but that should be easy to inspect; carefully push the piston/con rod assembly up into the bore after you have the cod cap off, with a good light you can visually inspect the upper half, if smooth without significant scoring or damage, they are good to use. (be careful to not damage the crank journal with the rod bolts, put duct tape over the bolts to protect the journal before you push the rod off the journal). You can use the plasti-gauge test from the lower half of the bearing (clean all the oil off to get accurate clearance measurement). make sure you put a lot of rev lube on the bearings for the final assembly.

BTW, once the engine is back together and ready to start, full of oil do this: unplug the electrical distributor connector and crank the engine until the oil pressure gauge comes off the peg, and when you see oil coming out the cam bearings (have the valve cover off). this will pre lube all the bearings and internal parts, fills the galleys and filter. Than plug in the distributor connector, install the valve cover, top up the motor oil, and fire up the engine. This will prevent dry starts the first time.

In summary:

1. use the factory toyota pump, I would clean it out with clean solvent and than fill it with motor oil before I installed it.
2. Inspect the lower half of the mains and both sides of the rod bearings, if visually good, clean and plastigauge them. if good than use assembly lube on the journals and torque them up to spec. Assembly only after item 4 below is completed.
3. visually inspect cam bearings, if no damage/metal transfer than they are good to go. Clean and Use assembly lube on cam bearings and cam lobes. Assembly only after item 4 below is completed.
4. I would as a minimum flush out all the oil galleys with spray carb cleaner when you have the oil pump out, the main caps off, and the rods disconnected, and cam shaft out of head. This should allow you to at least flush out anything that might be in galleys, use a small bore bush in all the galleys where possible, and final blow out with compressed air if possible. than do the final assembly. I is really helpful to have compressed air to do the final cleaning of all the parts. rent or borrow one, or just go buy one of the cheap ones from harbor freight, you will find a lot of things to use it on after you 0wn one.

and than use the oil priming procedure to pre-lube the internal parts before you start the engine for the first time.

[DanT]

Petros,

Thanks SO MUCH for walking me through this step by step. I have done a fair amount of mechanical work but this is all new to me. Very cool to learn how oil pumps work together bearings and crankshafts and piston rods to float moving parts. Was not aware of how critical the oil pump was... unitl now!

Your instructions are really clear; I very much appreciate knowing how to do this right. Toyota oil pump should be here on Friday. If all goes well I should have this car on the road by Monday.... with the help of my friend next door.

All gasket surfaces are clean and ready to go for the pan and the oil pump. Please correct me if there is a better way to do this, but I was told to put a light coat of black silicon on each side of the gaskets and then assemble. I was told to tighten the pan bolts in a particular order: Ends first, then up one side from one end while at the same bolt count coming down the other side from the other end.

Advice on pan and oil pump gaskets that will not leak?

If this car all goes together without any more roadblocks I am going to be very, very, happy. Shhhh.... not time to celebrate yet....