Timing notch

[celtglen]

My car started hesitating, flubbing but would restart. After replacing some vac hoses, resetting the idle speeds I checked the timing.

The timing notch is WAY counter-clockwise--like WAY off from the timing marks. But she runs...but as I have dropped the timing belt on this car 3x over the 29 years I have driven her--I ain't gonna drive her again--until get this rectified.

What do you guys think this is? I have yet to pop off the timing cover to look--I have a spinal injury and it takes a lot of pain for me to bend over and work on the car.

I just wanted to know if anyone has experienced this and what they had to do. I think it may be the idler pulley and spring..the Toyo repair manual kinda indicates the pulley is loose.

What do you all think, AND if you have bought an aftermarket pulley what brand worked?

Thanks!

[dlb]

a couple prelim questions, glen--

did you have the manifold vacuum advance disconnected when you checked the timing? if not, the timing would be appear around 13* BTDC for stock timing of 5* BTDC and as high as 18* if you have your timing advanced to 10* BTDC like a lot of forum users do. that could cause the timing to appear off.

are you sure your vacuum advance is hooked up correctly? remember, ported vacuum must go to the lower port on the vac advance can and manifold vacuum must go to the higher port that does not have the brass restriction device on it. having these backwards will mess things up as ported and manifold vac act at different times, and the two ports on the vac cans advance the timing by different amounts. FYI, the lower port advances the timing quit a bit, 13* or so, and the lower one advances it by about 8*.

are you sure the diaphragms in your vac advance cans are intact? you can test them by sucking on the hoses. if they hold pressure, they're good.

i actually posted a thread recently about hidden vacuum leaks since there are lots of non-obvious ones, like ruptured diaphragms. check it out here: https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8058

also, when you say the timing is way counter clockwise do you mean the mark is appearing closer to the passenger side of the vehicle? i'm assuming so.

back to the timing: if you checked the timing properly and it was still really far advanced, i would check to make sure that the bolt securing the dizzy is still snug. if it has loosened off, the dizzy could have rotated a bit and changed the timing.

also, more details on the symptoms. when is it hesitating? for how long? when it's hot or cold or both? let us know what you find.

[marlinh]

Are you talking about timing while running? You will need to check that the base marks are right on by pulling the upper cover off, rotating the engine by hand till the timing mark on the crankshaft line up. The number one cylinder need to be at TDC firing. If the cam mark is at the bottom, that will be for number four and one more rotation will bring number one into firing. Just as a point of interest, I helped someone with a broken tercel on the side of the highway last summer. It would run, crappy, sometimes great, but very erratic. It turned out that the crankshaft bolt was loose for years and wore the slot where the key held the pulley in place allowing the 'timing' to jump all over the place. I kept the pulley and will post a photo of it sometime when I can upload from high speed. Very weird problem that no one I've talked to have ever seen before. When it ran it also sounded like a bunch of marbles rattling around which turned out to be the belt retainer that mounts in front of the pulley. It was loose enough to rattle.

[celtglen]

[quote="marlinh"]Are you talking about timing while running?

Yes

"You will need to check that the base marks are right on by pulling the upper cover off, rotating the engine by hand till the timing mark on the crankshaft line up. ... Just as a point of interest, I helped someone with a broken tercel on the side of the highway last summer. It would run, crappy, sometimes great, but very erratic. It turned out that the crankshaft bolt was loose for years and wore the slot where the key held the pulley in place allowing the 'timing' to jump all over the place. I kept the pulley and will post a photo of it sometime when I can upload from high speed. Very weird problem that no one I've talked to have ever seen before. When it ran it also sounded like a bunch of marbles rattling around which turned out to be the belt retainer that mounts in front of the pulley. It was loose enough to rattle.

Might be that bolt I was thinking about it last night..no marble sounds though.

thanks
CG

[Petros]

There is an easier way to verify the timing mark, pull the no. one spark plug and watch (through the hole) for the top of the piston (a good flash light helps). when the piston is at top dead center, the mark on the front pulley should line up with "O" on the front cover indicator. A damaged key way on the front pulley is pretty rare on a Toyota (I have seen it on other cars), but you still need to veryify that the timing belt is in the correct place. Remove the upper timing belt cover and verify the timing marks on the upper pulley still line up (see the FSM for an illustration of the timing marks). If your timing belt is cracked and missing teeth you will need to replace the belt anyway, and a good chance that it skipped a few teeth.

while you are at it, you might put some white or red paint on the timing mark to make it easier to see.

like everything else, the timing belt will be missing a few teeth as it gets old.

[Petros]

double post deleted

[celtglen]

There is an easier way to verify the timing mark, pull the no. one spark... If your timing belt is cracked and missing teeth you will need to replace the belt anyway, and a good chance that it skipped a few teeth.

Which is what is so puzzling..the belt is new < two months..but it may have been bad from the git-go though it felt pretty healthy

while you are at it, you might put some white or red paint on the timing mark to make it easier to see.
No kidding! I have taken to setting the timing with the cover off so I can see it

like everything else, the timing belt will be missing a few teeth as it gets old.

\

Thanks again, I have yet to get to it but will keep you all updated!

[celtglen]

Hi all,

In the process of trying to reset the timing, I had to push the distributor all the way toward the firewall. Then the timing mark was @18 BTD...all vac lines plugged in. Tested the vac advance yesterday and it does advance properly.

I was about to try it w/ the vac advance plugged and the belt broke...she is not going anywhere. I remember the Toyo mechanics, back in the 90s, told me when the distributor has to be pushed all the way it was an indication the belt was about to break...so it did!

Now a question for you all---I am about to order the Gates belt for this with the tensioner package from RockAuto;

GATES Part # TCK070 2 Components (1 Belt, 1 Tensioner, 0 Idlers) PowerGrip Premium OE Timing Belt Component Kit

Have any of you all used this brand?

Thanks again

[Petros]

gates makes an excellent product, it is one of the best on the market. I would not hesitate to use it at all.

odd it gave way right when you were trying to set the timing, perhaps it was stretched and skipping teeth after all.

You might consider replacing the front main crank seal while you are at it, unless you have reason to think the seal has been replaced recently, it is an inexpensive and easy thing to do when the timing belt has to come off anyway.

[celtglen]

gates makes an excellent product, it is one of the best on the market. I would not hesitate to use it at all.

odd it gave way right when you were trying to set the timing, perhaps it was stretched and skipping teeth after all.Truth be told I bought it from Autozone or O'reillys. It looked pretty thin compared to the Toyota belt I took off. It was past time to replace that one so I opted to go ahead. Lesson learned!

You might consider replacing the front main crank seal while you are at it, unless you have reason to think the seal has been replaced recently,It has I wasn't feeling up to pulling off the water pump pulley,the AC and pwr steering belts today. Heat is mine enemy and we are sitting under High pressure as well Once I get off the cover I should know more. Thank again for all the help!

[danzo]

Glen did you remove the dizzy recently? It sounds like you installed it one tooth off at some point. Crazy timing readings with the dizzy pushed all the way to one side can do this.

At 29 years of ownership you must be a record-holder here!

[celtglen]

Glen did you remove the dizzy recently? It sounds like you installed it one tooth off at some point. Crazy timing readings with the dizzy pushed all the way to one side can do this. I paid a mechanic to put in my new dizzy and the timing was fine..he set it and when I got home I did as well..it was all good--then whammy THIS--then it threw the belt..I am thinkin it might be the tensioner I should have that answer here later today. I am taking off assorted belts and pullyes so I can pull off the timing cover.

At 29 years of ownership you must be a record-holder here!

Yeah? Neat! My Tercel is one of the last ones built IN Japan for US import, it came into the States @CA and was shipped to a dealer and was driven TO me. I bought it through a fleet company--saved me about 3K. I put on all but the 265 miles it took to get her to me..she is sporting 310,600 miles or there about.

[celtglen]

UPDATE:

Timing belt DID jump the sprockets so I had that and the tensioner replaced..alas more problems. I have posted to another forum where another member is having similar issues to my now NEW AND IMPROVED PROBLEMS!

Thanks for you help guys!

[celtglen]

Glen did you remove the dizzy recently? It sounds like you installed it one tooth off at some point. Crazy timing readings with the dizzy pushed all the way to one side can do this.

At 29 years of ownership you must be a record-holder here!

FINALLY uploading the timing notch that I tried to describe. The timing mark was under the water pump pulley! **Note the white mark I made on it. The timing scale is east of that.

Then, of course, the belt jumped and I mistakenly hired the mechanic to DO IT AGAIN and put in a new belt and tensioner...he got worse and charged me 125 for the privilege of being stranded--again.. 75 for the parts AND ruining the dizzy--another 170.

[Petros]

I am not sure I understand why you are blaming the mechanic, was it just bad luck the timing belt went out after he worked on it, or did he do something to cause it to go out? If so what? Or did he "fix" the wrong thing and not noticed it actually needed a timing belt?

Not unusual at all to misdiagnose the problem and replace perfectly good parts, and not fix the problem. Of course it sometimes occurs that more than one thing is wrong and needs fixing, fix the first problem, and the second one is easier to find. Mechanics get blamed for that too, even though it was not his fault (except for not doing a more thorough diagnosis). But that is why I have always stressed to all the newbies, diagnosis the problem first, than fix it.