7A-C build (1.8 liter block with A series head)

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Teddy1
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Post by Teddy1 »

Project 7A-C, Entry 1

First Entry!

Well, I have done some preliminary measurements and other investigation into the building of the 7A-C and the swap process, and I have decided it's a "go".

As requested, I will document EVERY detail, for any/all who are interested.

A brief foreward: my primary driver is an 84 Tercel 6 speed 4 wheel drive SR5 Wagon, US spec.

The current engine is a 3A-S with ALL emissions stuff removed, all extra vacuum plumbing, EAC, EGR, cat etc all removed, and stock carb replaced with a Weber.

The car has given me approx. 140,000 trouble free miles, averaging about 30 MPG, with RADICALLY improved power over the stock setup.

IF everything was still working fine, I would not be DOING the swap... but, everything is not fine.

The car now has just a few miles less than 250K on the clock, and it has been driven by a chinese girl the last 5 months... I loaned it to her (she sold her other car) and she "learned" how to drive a car with a manual transmission using my car.

I will not detail her "trials", and I will not get upset. She is a good friend, and the car's current condition is a PERFECTLY good reason for me to do the swap.

The car was recently broken into for the stereo, and the thief TOTALLY mangled the dash... so, one of my parts cars will be donating it's dash, and I will have the local Toyota dealership do that swap (insurance is covering the repairs).

Before doing all of this work, I have test driven several of the available current 4 wheel drive wagons, and I have been pretty disappointed by the offerings.

None of them are very competent off road, with the exception of the Mercedes Benz E500 4 Matic Wagon... and for THAT much money, I could buy THREE houses in Corpus Christi, Texas.

The Subaru offerings are very well appointed, but also spendy, and not very good off road (the sales dudes did NOT like that I took their cars into the dirt... hahahahaha). I drove both the Forester and the Outback. I wasn't impressed with them, in the dirt.

The Audi and VW wagons were VERY hot, and DID handle VERY well off road, but... look at those interiors. I couldn't bring myself to splatter mud all over them... I have dogs, and my dogs get dirty on road trips, too. I definitely liked the german cars, but... too spendy, too fancy, and too "pretty".

The newer (but not "brand new") Corolla AllTrac Wagon has a nicer interior, but the car seems way heavier, and again, not as competent, off road. These were made in the 90's.

What irony! The dog-simple, cheapest suspension componentry Toyota offered in 4 wheel drive seems to have the best articulation and manners, in the dirt. I prefer the way the Tercel handles rocks and ruts over the Subaru and the Corolla.

So. I am dedicated to spending some time and money on my ugly little wagon.

Engines: As previously discussed, I ruled out the 4AG-E swap. I have driven my friend's car in Phoenix, and it was too peaky and the engine is just too heavy. The horsepower and torque were very good, but the torque was WAY up in the rev range, which did not suit the wagon. I have owned Mister 2's and Corolla GTS cars before, so, I was kind of expecting this. Too bad... I *love* that motor. But, it is not a good mating with the Wagon's transmission and character.

I also ruled out ALL of the other 4A engines... either, not enough power gains to warrant the hassles, or TOO much power (like the 20 valve 4AG-E or the supercharged 4AG-ZE) or they weight too much, etc.

This left me with the 7AF-E... however, there were some "issues" with THAT, as well... the twin cam motor is cross flowing, so none of the intake/exhaust componentry will be in the right place... ignition, fuel injection, sensors, etc... too complicated of a swap, for the return investment (in my opinion). The donor engine will be from a 95-97 JDM car, 7AF-E.

So, I have settled on a "C" series head (from one of my 3A-C equipped cars) on a 7AF-E block... in essence, a 7A-C motor.

My intake and exhaust stuff will all work, no changes to ignition or sensors will br requisite, and most everything CAN be "bolted in".

The oil galleys and valvetrain all line up, no clearancing issues, between the 7AF-E block and the 3A-C head. I cannot testify to this with OTHER A series blocks and OTHER C series heads.

I have already measured my Weber air cleaner assembly, and it will DEFINITELY be banging into the hood once mounted to the 7A-C. The 7A block is considerably taller than the 3A block, so the added altitude would actually make my air cleaner several inches TALLER than the hood. This will neccessitate cutting the hood, and putting in a cowl type induction/scoop setup. I will be documenting this, as well. I know you will want photos of me cutting holes in my hood :)

The pulleys: The only pulley I know for a FACT that I will be keeping is the cam pulley... I will check on the clearances/alignment/sizes/mounting of the crank pulley, alternator pulley, water pump pulley, power steering and idler pullies. I will definitely document WHICH ones (from which motors) I use, and where, and why.

The head from one of my 3A-C motors will be going to the machinist and getting bead blasted on the outside, hot tanked, then getting a 3 angle valve job, bigger intake valves fitted (along with new valve seats), new springs, a new cam, and the deck shaved (to square the head as well as to increase compression). Intake and exhaust ports are NOT going to be messed with, with the possible exception of deburring/smoothing.

The exhaust manifold will get sandblasted, and then ceramic coated by a local shop in Auburn that specializes in this. This will increase power for the FOLLOWING reasons: a) it will lower underhood temps, which means a colder intake tract, and colder air and colder fuel mean more power, due to increased charge density (you can discount the whacko thread somewhere else on this forum regarding PURPOSELY heating the fuel... that is voodoo, and will cause a LOSS of power), B) the exhaust gasses will REMAIN hot in the manifold, which increases gas velocity and scavenging in the exhaust system, and c) the ceramic coated exhaust manifold will be less inclined to parasitically transfer heat BACK to the exhaust ports, which will decrease the incidence of ping and knock.

The larger valved, high compression 7A-C should net approx 90-95 horsepower, and about 120 ft. lbs of torque without any emissions gear or a cat... once I get the cam timing dialed in correctly. I am aiming for smooth, tractable low end power, for nice off road treks.

We will see! I will dyno the results.

The Weber carb will be getting a fuel pressure regulator (set at 3 lbs) per the manufacturer's instructions, and I will use my wide band O2 sensor and the stock oxy sensor bung location to tune air/fuel and ignition timing.

As I said, I will document and photograph the entire affair.

- Teddy
Teddy1
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Post by Teddy1 »

errrrrr.

The Topic should read... with "C" series head.

Hehehehe.

"ooops"
3A-C Power
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Post by 3A-C Power »

That's great. I can tell you really did the research and found this to be the best thing for you. I agree that the 7A-C is the most practical swap to give you the kind of power you need while keeping it reliable and close to the original. With that Weber carb you should have lots of power, probably more than 100hp if everything is done right. As far as I know you're the first to do this. I'll support you however I can and so will many of us.
Teddy1
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Post by Teddy1 »

Awwwww... thank you 3A-C Power :)

Everyone is very friendly in this forum... it is... ummmm, a WELCOME departure from the FlameFests I see on many other boards.

You are correct... I did a LOT of studying regarding my engine options. And, make no mistake... I am MADLY in love with the 4AG-E motor... but, it is just not the right choice for me, and this car. But, the intake/exhaust/ignition/plumbing etc. issues have basically forced me to go with the 7A-C. I really prefer a simple, clean engine bay, and I think this will be the ticket. We'll see! I could be wrong, and this could turn out to be a complete disaster.

I will also be lifting the car 2 inches, just like that father and son duo have... I will need to talk to them, soon. Have you seen their posts (and pictures of their car) in the "General" forum? DirtMagnet is the user ID, I think.

They seem very personable, and that lifted Tercel looks WICKED mean.

- Teddy
Typrus
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Post by Typrus »

I am thinking about doing a 4A-GE swap once I get a job (newb driver, 16) and for now am mapping everything out. I see no problem in going with a 4A-GE in my car except for that silly catalytic converter cool-engine bay air pickup thing. What the heck is the use of that anyway? Can it just be hacked off, or at least moved?
Both sides under the body are the same so routing the exhaust past getting around the steering column and converter thing wouldn't be hard, heck, you might even want to do a side-vent, just for the novelty. I still have a lot more research to do, including anti-torsional things. I'm pondering a roll-cage to provide extra stiffness with roll-over functionality, and really want to know more about beefing up the tranny and diff to deal with 2-3x the original power.
Maybe I'll just make a nice topic about it. I just wish I had the engine bay of my sis's 81 Corolla Tercel... Almost nothing in there to take up room! Shame it's only 2wd...

Please keep us updated!

Something you might want to do is look into having tubular headers made, with ceramic coating to help keep under-hood temps down.


BTW, I think heating the fuel was meant to increase mileage, not necesarily power. Ideally the air going in would always be around 45 degrees. After all, too cold and it starts hurting.. Don't want the fuel to deatomize.
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
takza
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Post by takza »

Teddy wrote:This will increase power for the FOLLOWING reasons:  a) it will lower underhood temps, which means a colder intake tract, and colder air and colder fuel mean more power, due to increased charge density (you can discount the whacko thread somewhere else on this forum regarding PURPOSELY heating the fuel...  that is voodoo, and will cause a LOSS of power), 
This is a commonly held belief seen here and there....but my guess is that it probably isn't so with the 3AC carb setup. The likely reason being that the increased vaporization gives more power than the increased temps take away....haven't proved it though.

I've measured the inside the air cleaner temps with my Tercel and they stay around 110 F with the heat stove functional...I do notice that when the outside temps are around 50F or so...the heated fuel and advanced ignition gives surprising power to the 3AC engine. Both my cars run strongest at or somewhat below 50 F or so.

Next summer I'll have the heated fuel setup changed so that I can shut it on and off....and can do a timed 30 to 55 MPH "power" test in fifth gear to find out the facts.

---------------------

I have a question: would you think that advancing the cam timing by maybe 3-5 degrees would increase the torque with the 3AC engine under say 4K RPM? I mostly drive my car under 4K and am considering trying this next timing belt change.

This has been reported with other engines to increase torque in lower-mid ranges and improve gas mileage.
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GTSSportCoupe
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Post by GTSSportCoupe »

Excellent introduction - thanks! Can't wait to hear how things go. This would be my swap of choice too.
Current:
91 LJ78 Landcruiser EX5
95 A32 Maxima SE
Former:
87 AW11 MR2 Smallport 4AGZE
93 Taurus SHO ATX
86 AL25 SR5 6spd 4wd
90 AE92 GTS
82 KP61 SR5
85 MX73
87 AE86 GTS 4AGZE
85 AE86 GTS
83 AL21
Teddy1
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Post by Teddy1 »

Takza,

GENERALLY speaking, and with few exceptions, advancing your static ignition timing will ALWAYS increase power, sooner, right up until the point that ping/preignition and knock come into play. Conversely, retarding your ignition timing will increase power (or MOVE the power band) further up into the rev range "increasing high end power".

In neither scenario will there be a MAJOR "power gain" all the way through the rev range... we are simply MOVING the powerband (nothing is free, after all).

With all of my emissions gear missing and the spring damper and heat plate pulled out of my intake and no cat converter under the car, and the stock carb replaced with a Weber, I was able to dial in a LOT of advance, and the resultant power increase off idle allowed me to chirp my tires starting from SECOND GEAR.

Yes, I am dead serious.

There is no sense in getting all scientific about the AMOUNT of ignition advance to use, since none of our cars are going to have the same compression ratios and/or ring seal/valve seal or carbon deposits (these variables might swing pretty wildly from one car to the next, as some of us only have 100,000 miles on our cars, and others have 300,000 or more).

The 3A-C is a rather low compression motor, which tends to clunk and knock after 150,000 miles... no matter what. The rod and wrist pin rattles and clunks get REALLY loud by 200,000 no matter what. This sometimes makes it difficult to determine what IS knock and ping, when doing manual timing advances, and then taking the car for a test run, every 2 degrees.

If you live somewhere where you are not required to keep your cat converter, then removing it, dialing in some advance and running colder plugs gapped wide will make for impressive (noticeable) power gains.

Note that cam timing is similar... advancing and retarding move the powerband around... and make for a more (or less) rev happy motor. What gets really tricky is when you start moving timing on BOTH the cam AND the distributor...

Hehehehe.

I will be turning my cam pulley into an adjustable unit, so that tuning of the 7A-C engine is a bit more optimized. I will also be running braided stainless steel tubing from the valve cover to the exhaust downpipe (angled back) for positive vacuum in the crankcase, full time. This arrangement will insure that the rings seal well, that spent blowby gasses are evacuated out of the case, and that my intake tract stays clean and non oil fouled (instead of a PCV valve running to the intake or the carb, this line will be running to the exhaust).

- Teddy
tompat011
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Post by tompat011 »

You stated earlier:

"Engines: As previously discussed, I ruled out the 4AG-E swap. I have driven my friend's car in Phoenix, and it was too peaky and the engine is just too heavy. The horsepower and torque were very good, but the torque was WAY up in the rev range, which did not suit the wagon. "

Question: I'm contemplating a swap. The reason ....power...A great amount of my time is on the road with a lot of highway. I enjoy driving this mini beast and I use the 4wd a lot before the plows arrive and it has gotten me home many times from great distances in appropriate style. And a lot of the roads have fairly steep ( 9-11%) grades.
Which would be a better choice...the RPM's at 70 are 3500. And even if the tires are upgraded a bit the rpm's will still be above 3K. Doesent seem to have too much torque a 3K, it seems that you need to downshift before 3K and then another downshift depending on the distance of the grade and maybe another.
Someone mentioned a 3A_S as having 80 hp/dyno, Is this with the split header? and does anyone have a contact for this? Regarding the 7a-C piston replacement ( with the 3a-C pistons) Are the '7' pistons so crowned that this is necessary? Replacing the pistons, rings and pins opens another door in the rebuilding cost....which is probably to be expected, unless maybe it isn't necessary to hone the cylinders for this. Them dollars really want to fly...and my wallet would like some fly paper for them.
Tompat011
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Post by Gasoline Fumes »

tompat011 wrote: Regarding the 7a-C piston replacement ( with the 3a-C pistons) Are the '7' pistons so crowned that this is necessary? Replacing the pistons, rings and pins opens another door in the rebuilding cost....which is probably to be expected, unless maybe it isn't necessary to hone the cylinders for this. Them dollars really want to fly...and my wallet would like some fly paper for them.
Tompat011
I think you would need the larger bore 4AC pistons, not the 3AC. The reason is most pistons have reliefs cut into them for the valves. The 3AC/4AC valves could hit the 7AFE pistons, since those pistons were designed for a 16-valve head. You could check the clearances and see if the 7AFE pistons will work, but I'd rather just have pistons that match the head better.
Teddy1
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Post by Teddy1 »

I am making a hybrid motor... The head is from a 3A-C, the block (with crank, rods and pistons) are from the 7A-FE, thus resulting in a 1.8 liter eight valve, which we are dubbing the "7A-C".

According to my measurements, there will not be a piston to valve interference issue... in fact, it appears that the top of the pistons in the 3A-C (on the stock crank) ride closer (higher) in the combustion chamber than the 7A-FE pistons do.

This will all be academic until I have the head shaved and decked, and then REMEASURE tolerances with head gasket and bigger valves in place...

Really, I think the "tricky" part of this will be the timing belt and idler!

I was wrong... the Porsche 924/944 timing belt is WAYYY too long... by about 3 inches. So, a friend of mine is going through the Beck/Arnley and Bates books, trying to find "the one".
Teddy1
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Post by Teddy1 »

tompat011:

Like I said, I am trying the 7A-C configuration, because I don't feel that the 4A-GE and the Tercel Wagon are a good "match".

I *love* the 4A-GE (I have owned MANY of them... one, a Formula Atlantic engine, in Hawaii) but I think (I am HOPING) that the 7A-C setup will provide a smoother, more tractable bottom end for the wagon.

We'll see, I guess! I am going to check with Tim down in Tacoma to see if he can "match" me up some bigger valves (for intake)... for those of you who don't know, Tim is a Toyota BAD ASS. The dude has supercharged and turbocharged Toyota motors all over the place. Literally.

mailto:tim@timstoys.net if you are looking for a supercharged motor that will bolt into the Tercel Wagon (4AGZE)
Teddy1
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Post by Teddy1 »

Of course... I have absolutely no doubt that the 4AGZE will rip the internals RIGHT OUT of the Tercel's transmission, and drop them under the car.

Which is why I am not doing that particular swap, myself.
Teddy1
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Post by Teddy1 »

tompat011:

The 3A-S we dyno'd did INDEED have the two port exhaust manifold (instead of the single port US-style manifold). The engine also had the factory dual carb setup.

I believe that both Japan and Australia got this version of the 3A... it was DEFINITELY a hotter version than the 3A-C.

We almost NEVER get the hot rod stuff, here in the US. Australia has always been the cool kids. :-(
takza
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Post by takza »

Teddy wrote:Takza,

GENERALLY speaking, and with few exceptions, advancing your static ignition timing will ALWAYS increase power, sooner, right up until the point that ping/preignition and knock come into play. Conversely, retarding your ignition timing will increase power (or MOVE the power band) further up into the rev range "increasing high end power".

In neither scenario will there be a MAJOR "power gain" all the way through the rev range...  we are simply MOVING the powerband (nothing is free, after all).

With all of my emissions gear missing and the spring damper and heat plate pulled out of my intake and no cat converter under the car, and the stock carb replaced with a Weber, I was able to dial in a LOT of advance, and the resultant power increase off idle allowed me to chirp my tires starting from SECOND GEAR.

Yes, I am dead serious.

There is no sense in getting all scientific about the AMOUNT of ignition advance to  use, since none of our cars are going to have the same compression ratios and/or ring seal/valve seal or carbon deposits (these variables might swing pretty wildly from one car to the next, as some of us only have 100,000 miles on our cars, and others have 300,000 or more).

The 3A-C is a rather low compression motor, which tends to clunk and knock after 150,000 miles...  no matter what. The rod and wrist pin rattles and clunks get REALLY loud by 200,000 no matter what. This sometimes makes it difficult to determine what IS knock and ping, when doing manual timing advances, and then taking the car for a test run, every 2 degrees.

If you live somewhere where you are not required to keep your cat converter, then removing it, dialing in some advance and running colder plugs gapped wide will make for impressive (noticeable) power gains.

Note that cam timing is similar...  advancing and retarding move the powerband around...  and make for a more (or less) rev happy motor. What gets really tricky is when you start moving timing on BOTH the cam AND the distributor...
I think the 3AC was setup with retarded ignition in order to reduce NOX emissions....result being a lack of power....but with ignition set from 12 to 15 BTDC...I see NO noticable power dropoff up to 5K...it winds right up.

I did have to move to NGK plugs from Bosch plats due to actual dieseling at idle in summer in town traffic...engine sounded just like a diesel...this is with a heated fuel setup where the more you idled in traffic...the hotter the fuel got.

My 3AC has around 220K miles on it and as far as I can tell, it hasn't been apart (hard to really say though)...can hear no knocks or rattles other than a noise under the valve cover that I think is the fuel pump (sounds like a loose valve). The motor also gets 9K per quart of oil...after replacing the valve cover gasket....not bragging...just a fact...so far.

Pinging is obvious and sounds to me more like "ticking"....a distinct sound.

I'll be replacing the radiator this summer and intend to advance the cam by one tooth when I do that....hoping to get better low end power...don't care too much about power above 4.5K or so. Do realize that I'll have to reset the ignition timing.

Also will go with a 192F thermostat when I do this....supposedly for better MPG.

After making all these changes...I'm hoping the old engine still hangs together....... :blink:
Give a boy a gun-give a biatch a cell phone-and pretty soon you almost got yourself a police state.

Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...

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