Cold Weather Blues

[sebsi]

Well, I've got a dead Tercel in the Rockies. Here's what happened yesterday.

It was about 5 degrees in the morning. I hit the starter and got the "frozen everything" sound: just a slow gurning sound that drained the battery in a couple minutes. I put a heat blower under the car and jumped it. After several minutes, it gradually warmed up and ran normally. I let it heat up so that the temperature was about a quarter of the way up and I was getting warm air from the heater.

I drove it about 1/2 a mile when the oil light came on, and then it died. I turned it over a few times but the battery just gave up. I neighbor jumped me again, but it wouldn't "fully" start. It wouldn't get over about 500 rpms and sounded, well, bad. Finally the starter just quit. So I had power (lights, etc) but no action from the starter.

This is where I am today. When I hit the ignition, I hear the solenoid engage and the pulleys move a tiny bit, but then nothing. This is with jumper cables connected. It's still freakin' cold (10-15 degrees).

A bit of history on this car: I've drained the battery (leaving the lights on) several times in the past few weeks. The car behaves strangely when it's being jumped: the jumper cables need to be on the battery for quite a while until the car starts; even then, sometimes it won't start "fully" and behaves like it did yesterday (when it wouldn't get over 500 rpms) and needs a longer time on the cables. Question: if the battery is dead, can the car still run? I know some cars can run w/out a battery.

I'm guessing that I've simply got a dead battery (I'm picking up a new one later today) and I'm making a mountain out a molehill, but I'm also worried that I did something major to the car by running it when it was too damn cold (I could barely engage the clutch and the shifter was almost immobile). I did not put in the 5w/30 like I should have a couple months ago, and I'm worried about the oil light coming on just before it died. Also, my temp gauge "bounces" a bit when I go over bumps, and I seem to recall it seemed very bouncy yesterday. My fear is that in the 10 or so minutes the car was running, it was basically running without oil (which I think was frozen in the bottom of the motor) and it freakin' seized, hence the fact that it won't even turn over even with a jump on. Either that or I just fried the starter, which would make sense too due to the extreme stress being put on it by the frozen conditions.

Thanks for reading,

Blake

[Petros]

I would guess you need both a battery and a starter. But you need to properly diagnose the problem. Oil can not freeze, it just gets real thick. I do not think running with 30 wt oil will damage the engine in extreme cold, usually the oil filter splits open. The lower viscosity oil is required so you can crank the engine fast enough for it to start. If it started I doubt the oil is the problem. Really thick cold oil can result in lower oil pressure, but if the engine was about to stall it likely was not running very fast, and it dropped oil pressure to the point of causing the oil light to come on. There may have been an oil starvation problem, but it does not seem likely.

I have driven an engine in extreme cold without enough antifreeze in the mix, and the radiator froze which caused the engine to over heat. I than needed a new head gasket. No mater how hot the engine is, if the radiator is frozen coolant can not circulate. Was there any chance the coolant froze? If so than you may have larger problems than your starter.

Good luck

[Highlander]

The solenoid not engaging the power to the starter motor itself is the contacts on the solenoid, two of my four do that, you just keep turning the key until it makes good contact and turns the engine over.
In really cold weather, I always start the engine with the clutch in, which reduces the amount of torque that the starter has to apply to turn the engine over. Now I normally don't advocate starting any car with the clutch engaged as the forward pressure on an unlubricated thrust bearing can destroy said bearing quickly, BUT the added load of the trans being turned can drain your battery very quickly, especially if its been abused (drained a few times as you indicated).
On the no-run situation, Does the oil pressure light go out when you do get it started? If so I'd bet on a frozen fuel line (ethanol LOVES to pick up water!) or a malfunctioning choke that's not pulling off causing a seriously rich condition. The choke is an easy one, pull the air cleaner top off, ans stick a long screwdriver down the primary throat to hold the choke plate open (you'll have to blip the throttle cable to open it up).
Now that i"m thinking about his, you could also have an iced up carb-that'll go away when the weather warms up

Just my thoughts- Where in the Rockies are you? Front Range or Western Slope?

[Rico2000]

I couldn't get my 81 started...even with liberal application of starting fluid. I'm going to re-try today.

[Highlander]

I never use starting fluid-too volatile for me, I've always used gas from a can and splash it in. When it's really cold I've found itsusually more a question of getting enough air rather than enough fuel. Who'd a thunk?

[sebsi]

Thanks for the input fellows.

I just tried to jump it again (and bump it) to no avail. I'm awaiting the wife with the new battery at the moment.

Petros, what are the symptoms of a blown head gasket? If the battery and starter are working OK, how is a motor with a blown gasket going to behave? I have no idea whether the coolant was frozen; however, I do know that the temperature gauge did not rise quickly or abnormally prior to the car dying.

I'm in Jamestown, btw.

Blake

[xirdneh]

Quote "Question: if the battery is dead, can the car still run? I know some cars can run w/out a battery.


yes you can run without battery
the pos terminal cable end needs to be wrapped
as it will have some juice to it and will spark if it touches metal

[takza]

In really cold weather, I always start the engine with the clutch in, which reduces the amount of torque that the starter has to apply to turn the engine over. Now I normally don't advocate starting any car with the clutch engaged as the forward pressure on an unlubricated thrust bearing can destroy said bearing quickly, BUT the added load of the trans being turned can drain your battery very quickly, especially if its been abused (drained a few times as you indicated).

I ALWAYS push the clutch in when starting a stick shift...good insurance in case it's in gear....makes the engine turn faster. Also...I've had vehicles stall when started cold and then the clutch is let out while in neutral. A throwout bearing either has lube or it doesn't?

I've been doing things this way since before the cows came home...just like my father and his father before him...we're all clutch pushers....and proud of it. God bless us all....and may the force be with us.

[sebsi]

OK, popped in the new battery and it turned over endlessly without starting. It was acting just like it's out of gas (which its not). So I dropped a bit of gas into the carb and still nothing.

So as the wife was towing me, I thought what the hell and popped it into 2nd gear. It started. We stopped and the car idled normally, but sounded a bit rattle-y. So i unhitched and tried to move. It stalled and will not restart, even with another dollop of fuel in the carb.

So, the car runs, but won't start. Here's a couple thoughts:

1). Is there something in the electrical system that governs the ignition of the motor rather than the running of the motor? In other words, is there something to troubleshoot that works when the key is on ignition (which won't start the car) and when the motor is "running" already (i.e. a bump start)?

2). How do I know if my fuel pump is working? The fuel filter is full of gas, but it just doesn't seem like it's getting fuel (despite dumping a shot right into the carb).

Thanks again.

Blake

[danzo]

Really thick cold oil can result in lower oil pressure,

Not sure what you mean by this. Oil filters blow up due to being overpressurized.

I ALWAYS push the clutch in when starting a stick shift...good insurance in case it's in gear....makes the engine turn faster.

True dat, but you're battery has got to be knockin' on death's door if it can't turn the engine and trans input shaft. Not to sound abrasive, Highlander, but the worn out thrust being claim is a bit of a wive's tale; if true McDonald's would include a thrust bearing in every Happy Meal. Minimal wear even over many years of use, as proven by virtually every stick shift car made since the early '80s. But I disable the "nuetral safety switch" on every car I own mainly to avoid the clutch annoyance and so I can turn the key with my arm through the window, i.e. when I'm working on the car. I simply make sure it's always in nuetral when parked.

Sebsi it sounds like you have an ignition problem, which can be sporadic esp in cold weather. Your car is getting gas and it's turning over well enough. Just remove a spark plug, reattach the plug wire, ground it on the valve cover bolt and have wife crank engine. You should be able to see a nice spark in the plug's gap (do NOT hold the plug with bare hands). My bet is there won't be a spark (do the test several times to be sure), and the next step is to hit the Factory Shop Manual (FSM) to troubleshoot. It's pretty thorough in this area, as it helped my trace a bad coil which is not too uncommon on these cars. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Petros]

Sebsi,

pull a spark plug wire and hold it close to the engine while someone cranks it. You should have a strong bluish spark, "snap-snap-snap!", if it is absent, yellow, weak or intermittent, you have a spark problem. But since it would not run with fuel spilled down the carb, likely it is no/weak spark. A burned out coil can act like that, at higher rpms it will make a spark strong enough to run it, but it will not start because it is too weak to start an engine.

Clean the sight glass on the carb float bowl and see if you can see the fuel level through it (it is on the side of the carb that faces forward). Or, engine off, take off the air cleaner and look down the barrel (hold the choke open) and when you push the throttle forward fast, you should see a stream of fuel spraying down the barrel (a flash light helps). Both to these will tell you if you have fuel or not.

I would guess you have an electrical problem. Fastest "test" is to get a spare distributor assembly at a wrecking yard and just swap out the whole distributor. You will have to carefully reset the timing, but this will change the coil, ignitor, pick-up and all the contacts. If it starts, you have something wrong in the distributor. Search the archives for how to set the timing after you have removed the distributor.

Good luck.

[ARCHINSTL]

danzo - OT a bit, but - is there an EZ way to disable the clutch-disengaged-starter switch? After being able to "starter move" my '88 Dodge/Mitsu p'up a hundred feet or more out of rush hour traffic last year when it had vapor lock, I thought this would be a valuable mod for Goldie - "just in case"...
Come to think of it - I had to do this once on my beloved '86 626 once when it had EFI probs (although not as far).
Tom M.

[Highlander]

the worn out thrust being claim is a bit of a wive's tale; if true McDonald's would include a thrust bearing in every Happy Meal. Minimal wear even over many years of use, as proven by virtually every stick shift car made since the early '80s.

You've never lost a thrust washer from a Triumph engine due to this obviously (they are notorious for it), the same goes for the A series Austin engines. I've had to pull and build both for this reason, as well as the ubiquitous graphite throw out bearing that wears when the clutch is engaged. The 3A thrust bearing does have more wear surface available than the TR or Austin, but I really don't need the additional wear personally. JMHO.

[danzo]

I can understand old Brit cars wearing thrust bearings out, but it just doesn't happen to modern cars. When I had my Spitfire I heard about a few LBCs with this prob when the bearing was installed wrong or the wrong thickness was used, but it could have been a manufacturing defect too. This happened on a few '99-'01 Miatas, and they failed before the motors hit about 50k miles and have been recalled/repaired. But we're pretty much on the same page - I override the switches too.

is there an EZ way to disable the clutch-disengaged-starter switch? After being able to "starter move" my '88 Dodge/Mitsu p'up.....

I can def relate to you, Tom. I've had to move my car "on the starter" a few times over the years; it's a great safety feature to have in case you break down to close to traffic like you said. There are two wires going to a switch mounted in the clutch pedal housing. Simply remove them and splice together. In fact this eliminates the possibility of your car not starting due to this switch's failure. Win-win.

The only downside is that the cruise control won't cancel when you hit the clutch, but who has cruise? Once my brother borrowed my old BMW and I forgot to tell him about the clutch switch mod. He was using the cruise, hit the clutch for slower traffic, the engine bounced off the rev limiter and he freaked and turned the key off. Thankfully he didn't hit anything and thus avoided a decent beatin'. To this day he has a 'cruise phobia'.

When I lived in Boston I encountered the 'legend of the $300 Miata'. A guy towed a non-starting Miata to a shop, they said it need a new $2500 engine. The car was worth about $3000 so he elected to sell it for $300 to my friend. You guessed it - the clutch pedal was bent enough so it wouldn't depress the safety switch. He turned 'er into an autox demon for less than 2 grand total.

We got 5 inches of snow last night and my T4wd is stuck in the garage?!? You guys can witness the odd weather Sunday when 17% of Earth watches The Greatest Sports Show Ever involving The Greatest Sport Ever.

[sebsi]

Update:

OK, after letting her sit for a couple hours, she started right up. I think I had flooded it.

Here's the catch: it's running but with a nasty knocking and loss of power. It sounds like what I think is a sticky/busted valve, and it feels like maybe I'm running on 3 cylinders (not metaphorically, unfortunately). Knocking gets a lot louder up around 5-6K rpm.

Clues, fellows? I'm thinking I should check for spark first, then go from there. Thanks again for yesterday's posts.

Blake