engine problems

[guanajuatowagon]

Hey there-
This is my first post. I recently got a now to me wagon 1984 sr-5 in Portland Oregon, got the engine rebuilt, a new clutch, carb, radiator, and then drove it home to mexico. I am having a few problems, that from looking at the factory service maual (FSM) on this site I think I can troubleshoot and want to ask if anyone has any experience with these issues and what level of technical automotive skills are necessary to do this fixes. Here are the problems:
1. Occasionaly, there is a problem getting the car started. It turns, it is not an issue with the starter. What I do to get it running when this happens is I keep cranking and let out the clutch and it eventually pops in.
2. Occasionaly, the car will keep rumbling after I have turned off the ignition. From the FSM, I assume this is called Dieseling.
3. MPG is not that great, low twenties. I realize this might not be a fixable problem, but I would like it at least in the high twenties.
So, all three of this problems point toward two possible issues, from what I can make of the FSM. It could be a problem with the carb. in particular, it looks like maybe a faulty "Fuel Cut solenoid valve". Looks easy to solve from the manual, is this true? Is a Fuel Cut Solenoid Valve easy to procure at an AutoZone?
Otherwise, it could be a problem with the engine timing. This looks a little more complicated to solve. I have a meager level of mechanic experience, chaning oil, spark plugs, etc. Do you think this is out of my league?

Also, does anyone have any other suggestions on an easy fix to the problem?
THanks a bunch,
miguel

[xirdneh]

did you get a new carb or was it rebuilt or just cleaned?
are the fuel solonoids new too?
if you connect the fuel solonoids to the battery as shown in the FSM you just need to listen for a clicking sound
you could do that while they are still on the carb
if they click they work
if it was a rebuilt carb the small "o" rings on the end of the solinoids should have been replaced (were they?)
on old carbs the "o" ring gets hard

were the vac hoses installed properly (diagram under hood)?

does it idle nice and low? if not there is probably some crossed hoses or a leaky hose

brakes dragging?
all tires at 32psi?

on your starting problem i'm not sure what you are saying regarding the clutch
does the starter turn the engine over but it just does not fire up?

[tercelwill]

It's hard to tell what you mean with the starting problem. is the starter gear meshing correctly with the flywheel only when you pump the clutch?
the dieseling problem could be either fuel or ignition. If the spark is to retarded it will diesel. I would check timing and check for loose or poor connections in the entire electrical system. mine dieseled when i had my cooling fan sensor unplugged so my fans would be on all the time(sensor was bad and i had to wait on new one).

Mileage should defiantly be higher though i get high twenties in the city.

the dieseling and the mileage may be related to the fuel cut solenoid. Check the tail pipe if there is black smoke all the time then it's likely another carb issue causing it to run rich.

even with minimal experience you should be able to at least give it a shot.

[guanajuatowagon]

Ok, so I went and stared at my engine for a little bit, not sure if I really know where the fuel cut solenoid valve is. And didn't have any tools around to take off the air filter thing which looks like blocks most of the carb. Think I found and identified a couple of things from the diagram under the hood, but really need to get out some dirty cloths and set aside a few hours getting a better feel of things. Looks like it has been a long time since I messed with this stuff.
xirdneh:
I will look more closely at my reciept for autowork to see if it was new or rebuilt, I don't recall, and I can't identify the FCSV so don't know about the O Rings. I'll pay more attention to the vacuum diagram while trying to identify the FCSV. It doesn't idle nice and low, so that is something to look at.
I don't think the brakes are dragging, but maybe I wouldn't know. I feel like I would feel something like that, but what are the symptoms?

tercelwill:
Well, I haven't ever considered what is involved with the gear meshing and the flywheel. Ok, let me think, the starter gear gets turned when you crank and connects through a flywheel to get the engine going? Well, I don't pump the clutch, I let out slowly and try and find this 'sweet' spot . the sweet spot is somewhere between having the clutch all the way in, where the car will even rev, but just doesn't ever catch from the time I stop turning the key, and right before the point where the engine would die if the cluch were let out any. Then it sort of jumps and jolts together. Probably not good for the car but something to keep from being stranded in the middle of nowhere.

No black smoke out of the tail pipe, and it doesn't look like anything yucky is coming out of it.

Thanks for responding, I might be a day or two between responses.
miguel

[xirdneh]

i'm still not getting the starter thing
this is what should happen

1. push down clutch pedal
2. turn ignition key
3. starter turns engine
4. engine starts

are you saying the "starter turns" but does "not always turn the engine"? (damaged teeth on flywheel)
or that engine starts but the car does not always move when you let out the clutch? (probably tranny problem)

if you remove the nut on center top of the air cleaner
then remove two screws on right side of air cleaner (10 mm socket, attaches air cleaner to valve cover))
lift air cleaner assy and pull the black hose free off the valve cover (looking at engine from front of car its the second hose, the first is the PCV valve hose and it does not need to be disconnected)
then reach under the right side of the air cleaner and pull the hose off (plug end of that hose with a pencil or something before starting car with air cleaner removed, if you do not the car will not idle and will probabably die)
the air cleaner can now be removed giving you access to all vacuum hoses

start cold engine and let it warm up
watch whats going on with the choke
it should be closed when cold
when car gets to operating temperature choke should be open all the way (straight up and down)
if the choke opens properly and you stick your finger in the carb and can move the choke blade easily to the closed position the choke closer is not working
the choke closer is the diaphram on the top driverside of the carb (its probably not getting vacuum, check the hose, it should go to the TVSV at the top front of engine, thats the black plastic thing with five vacuum hoses, i believe it connects to the second port from the top)

the fuel solinoids are the two small cylinder shaped things with wires coming out of them on the back and driver side of carb.

[keith]

As I recall, the fuel cut offs were only on the Canadian models. The idle air/fuel mixture screw could be misadjusted to the rich side or the idle speed could be too high. Both of these will contribute to dieseling.

Not sure I understand the starter problem but I'd check that the starter bolts are all the way in before I tried to start it again. If they are good, then I'd pull the starter to look at the gears on the starter and the flywheel. Its starting to sound like you didn't get the best workmanship from your mechanic. What you may be trying to describe is a weak or broken bendix spring, usually means you have to replace the whole starter.

[Petros]

ON a carburetor car you have to pump the gas pedal a few times from a cold start. this "primes" the engine to get some raw fuel into the intake so it will start. So from a cold start pump the gas pedal two or three times right before you turn the key.

It sounds like a vacuum leak, or as noted, someone did not get the vac hoses connected properly. Once you get the air filter assembly off inspect all the hoses are connected, and going to the right places, than search this forum for how to find a vac leak (not too difficult).

Bad spark timing could cause it to diesel too. You should also check the spark timing, that will take a timing light, but there is a process someone posted on this forum for doing it "manually" without a timing light.

I believe all the North American Tercels have the fuel cut off solenoid. Even with it not working it should not diesel that much.

You will need to get (or borrow) some tools to do your own service on the car. Most service operations are not too difficult, see if you can find a friend or family member who knows something about fixing cars (any car experiance will be a big help) and than have him walk you through the basic operations.

Bad timing, a vacuum leak, or messed up vac lines can all cause poor economy and make it hard to start.


Good luck.

[4wdchico]

You have gotten some very good advice so far from some of our most experienced members. The advice to check everything in the vacuum system to make sure it is right is a great point to start. First, go to the junk yard and find a couple of mid '90s Camrys, they have some really long hoses running from the throttle body area, grab a couple of sets of those long hoses so you can replace bad hoses as you go along. Don't try to buy vac hoses for your car new at a parts store, Toyota vac hose is a non-standard size. Go thru the vacuum hose diagram to make sure that everything looks right. Then go thru every vac subsystem in the FSM and do all the functional checks to every system in the emission section. Make sure every hose is good by blowing and sucking on it after you have pulled it off. Check all hoses for any sign of deterioration carefully while it is off the car. Any doubts at all, put a new chunk of hose on. Check every vac diaphragm: attached to the carb- don't miss the AAP diaphragm, the EGR valve diaphragm and the two on the distributor. Do the all the checks to make sure that your TVSV is working correctly. Caution: use lots of finesse in removing any vac line from a plastic vac nipple. The chances of breaking the vac nipple off of a crispy old plastic component are high...

Doing the above for the first time will take 8-12 hours depending on your skill level. Sorry, but the chances that your vac system has been messed up by some bozo at sometime in the past are very high.

I have also gone into some detail recently about checking for vac leaks, setting the ignition timing and just getting the basics right in general in this thread:

http://www.tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtop ... f=4&t=5198

[Highlander]

Apparently, we're not communicating well about what is going on, let's try to get the lowdown on the stating problem-
If you put it in neutral and turn the key, what happens? Does the starter turn and not the engine?
If you put the clutch in (still in neutral) and turn the key, what happens?
If you put the clutch in (still in neutral), turn the key, and slowly release the clutch, what happens?
If you put the clutch in (while transmission is in gear), turn the key, and slowly release the clutch, what happens?
The answers to these questions will help pinpoint exactly what is happening, we can help from there..

Another possibility for the low fuel mileage and dieseling is the AAP diaphragm- if its broken you'll suck gas directly into the #1 intake runner and ruin your gas mileage in the process.

[guanajuatowagon]

Hey everyone-
Thanks so much for all the help and suggestions, still haven't been able to look at the carb situation and check out the vacuum diagrams. I only had a little time to work on it, but I got the air filter thing off and looked at it, I didn't plug the hose under the right side of the air filter, but the car still started and did not die.
The dieseling has only happened less than 5 times, and the car not starting has not happened since I started this post, which is unfortunate because I wanted to take some good notes.
One thing that I found looking under the hood, which might be the source of the car starting problem is this:
The battery had moved out of its little holder, and pinched one of its wires against the alternator. There was thus a lot of white powder on the alternator and the wire was in pretty bad shape. I have wrapped electrical tape around the wire and moved the battery back to where it should be. Possibly the cause of the car not starting well, but the cause of dieseling and low gas mileage?
Thanks again, sorry I just got some deadlines right after posting.
Miguel

[sh#tbox]

YOU NEED A TUNE UP! Dieseling is caused by too much advance on the distributor and the throttle being open too far, the idle set too high.

I got 2 of these cars they have very universal problems. First start with the plugs, pull them and read them. black is too much fuel, white is too lean, advance will cause it to be too lean too. ok put the plugs back in, (clean them if they are all black and nasty) now move to timing. IT SHOULD RIDE CLOSE TO WHERE THE BOLT HAS BEEN FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS, if not something is wrong. Now you need to work on advance curve, try removing and putting back the vacum advance hoses (make sure they go the right way according to your diagram) you should hear the timing change, if it does not get a vacum pump and try it that way. Still no movement, replace the vacum advance, this will cause your bad fuel economy.

now carbuerator, there is a little cover on the side of the carb with 3 screws and a vacum hose, pinch this hose and wait, if it was "sputtering" and clears up the diaphram has a hole in it. I manage this with a phillips bit and 1/4 inch wrench I do it with the carb on the engine! You can also pull the hose and look for fuel in the vacum line, it sucks raw fuel into the intake.

Someone probably turned the idle up so it would run, because the diaphram has a hole in it. Reset the idle, re-check the timing.

car is some 25 years old the rubber diaphrams dry up and wear holes in them, you should have had a new fuel pump by now too.

Also take a flashlight and check the sightglass, fuel level should be in the middle. (never had a problem with the float level) just check it, it does afterall have a sightglass.

make sure your valves are set right, sometimes they "tighten-up" after your rebuild they should have done a valve job, after everything gets nicely seated-in.

Both my cars have new vacum advance pods ($37.50) Diaphrams in the carb (some type of accelerator pump) had holes on them sucking raw fuel in the intake (gotta buy a kit $37.50)
one fuel pump was leaking, the other didn't work. ($37.50)

lucky me the screws werent screwd with, which is a major no-no. when it's right, it's right.

The adj screws should never need touched, the only one you mess with is the idle! you can really screw stuff up screwing with the screws!

When it's cold I push the gas 3 times that sets the choke, it chokes too much, so I got to give it some gas to clear it out. then the choke works. (idles about 1800) after it warms up it idles @ 850-900

after all this pull the plugs again see if you made an improvement, should be pretty clean, little white little black.

[mister.highwaystar]

I read quite a few of the comments, one obvious thing seemed to be missing. Adjust the new clutch it should have about a half inch of clutch pedal free play. Meaning you should be able to depress the pedal at least one half inch before it even begins to move the clucth disc away from the flywheel. This is crucial to how well your vehicle starts, without freeplay you are trying to turn the engine and transmission with the starter, sure you could use neutral. But the starter was never deigned to turn the tranny, also you may be trying to move the entire car with the starter.

[takza]

Yea...it's a PITA to do anything with the carb without removing the air cleaner...which is a bit of work.

My first guess is that the choke is stuck...you can use some carb cleaner on it by just removing the top of the air cleaner...then a little light oil. Need to check it cold to see if it SETS closed...then check it hot to see if it stays OPEN fully.