4AGE swap into 85 4WD

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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros »

On the EFI pump in the fuel tank, I inspected and measured the Corolla All-trac tank, it is slightly bigger than the tercel tank, but the curious thing about it is it looks like can be adapted to the Tercel with one change. The All-Trac has the tank put in the other way around, almost like a mirror. The tire well it has to fit around is off-set to the opposite side and so is the filler neck. But it almost looks like it will fit if you just swap it left side for right side, you would have to pull out the fuel pump and switch that around too so the lines will be running forward instead of back, but that should be an easy switch.

I suggest you pull a tank and pump from a 1988-1992 Corolla All-Trac and drag it over to a Tercel 4wd at the Pull-a-part and compare them side by side. They come out real easy, only 2 bolts should drop the straps, and disconnect the fuel lines and filler neck clamp. It might be worth the effort if it can be made to fit, which it looks like it can be. The Lynnwood Pull-A-part almost always has both an All-Trac and a Tercel 4wd at the same time (at least every time I have been there). This should avoid any leak risks and you do not have to worry about internal baffles. A few gallons more capacity for the Tercel would be a good bonus. The fuel gauge should have the same gain, so I would expect it to adapt just fine.

Make sure the fuel line you bought is rated for the pressure of the EFI pump, you want it rated about 3 times the pump pressure capacity (more would be better).

BTW, I reviewed the fit of the crank, it appears we would not have to do the flywheel mod if you swap out the six bolt crank from any '84-92 4AF crank into a '83-87 4AGE, they are dimensionally the same except the rear bolt pattern. The '88 and later 4AGE cranks have bigger rod journals and it would be more complicated, if you just stick with the pre-'88 4AGE it should swap over. Or you can alter the flywheel.

Speaking of that, our flywheels should be welded and ready for the delivery to the machine shop by Friday. I worked up a drawing of how I want to lighten the Tercel flywheel. Taking it all off the back should reduce the weight from 19 lbs down to about 14 lbs., it will also cool better since there is more surface area on the back side. If you resurface the front side to take off another 0.100 it will save another 1.5 pounds. It think that would be perfect. \

Below is an image I made up in case anyone wants to copy. I would not want to go much thinner than about 0.40 inches behind the clutch wear face for a daily driver, that should be plenty strong to keep it from warping. A full race flywheel could be as light as 5 or 6 lbs, so this will still behave well.

Snyth, if you want something different now is the time to speak up, this is what I want in my car.

Image
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
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SynthDesign
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

I'm fine with what you want to do for the flywheels.
If you resurface the front side to take off another 0.100 it will save another 1.5 pounds. I think that would be perfect.
Either way is fine but I'd opt for more room to have it resurfaced down the line. Especially if the clutches blows up or throws a rivet. You never know?
BTW, I reviewed the fit of the crank, it appears we would not have to do the flywheel mod if you swap out the six bolt crank from any '84-92 4AF crank into a '83-87 4AGE, they are dimensionally the same except the rear bolt pattern. The '88 and later 4AGE cranks have bigger rod journals and it would be more complicated, if you just stick with the pre-'88 4AGE it should swap over. Or you can alter the flywheel.
All the 4age blocks I have, All 7 rib, have the larger journals. It's not an option for what I have but a great possibility for other following this later.
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Petros
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros »

SynthDesign wrote: Either way is fine but I'd opt for more room to have it resurfaced down the line. Especially if the clutches blows up or throws a rivet. You never know?

Good point, I had not thought that far down the road. I am thinking with this much power the rest of the car will not hold up long enough to make that necessary. :wink:

I will be using a high performance clutch so it should grip better and slip less, meaning less heat and slippage anyway. The OEM clutch is just adequate for the stock engine, I am overloading it with the extra power I have now from my modified 3a engine.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Petros
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros »

I picked up the flywheels from the welder today and delivered them to the machine shop. I took a picture of the welds but I will not be able to post it until later.

The machinist who is going to do the work was not in when I dropped them off so I did not get a time table from him. I will talk to him on monday. I had already talked to him about doing it so he knows they were coming, I left him a drawing of the cross section with details on how I want them lightened.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
SynthDesign
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

Sweet. flywheels soon.
I got my garage cleaned up today. I'm ready to play with headers tomorrow.
I spent a bit of time removing the 3ac engine components I won't be needing(emissions stuff). A bit of degreasing and prepping the wire looms.

I found a crack in the brass tube of the coolant exchange for the heater core. When I pull the dash apart to do the wiring, I will now have to pull the heater core and braze the crack. Another problem to add to the check list. oh well

Petros, What performance clutch are you planning on using? I was looking towards the Exedy stage one organic w/complementing pressure plate.

When I pull the motor tomorrow I will at least have an empty work stall for a bit. :o

Hopefully some pics and updates later this weekend.

Thx again to all who have posted on this link, BTW, I appreciate everyone's help and input
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Petros
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros »

Snyth, I think I have 2 spare heater cores, you are welcome to one of them. If it is just a crack it would be just as well to repair it, but if yours is corroded through it should be replaced.

The welder only charged $100 for welding both flywheels, I paid him with cash to get a "discount". He is quite a skilled welder. So we have $50 into each flywheel so far.

I went to the Arlington pull-a-part today and found both an '84 Tecel4wd and a Corolla all-trac. So I spend WAY more time than I had intended there today. I pulled the all-trac tank and the tercel tank to inspect them side by side. It looks like it will fit, they were almost exactly the same shape, so I bought the all-trac tank with the pump and sender in it. It was $22.50 for all three. The All-Trac tank is several gallons bigger I think, it is two inches wider but that did not look like a problem, at worst the Tercel muffler heat shield will have to moved over about an inch.

There will be some adaptation to make them work: the whole assembly needs to be swapped end for end and the securing straps have to be reversed too. But they are located in exactly the same place so the tercel mounting system and location will work perfectly. The fuel pump has to be pulled and reinstalled so the fuel lines face forward, that is the easy one. The tank is held in place by two metal straps that force it up against rubber pads at certain locations, including the bottom of the spare tire well. Since the spare tire well are the same size it fits there perfectly. There is a mount against the floor of the Tercel that is unneeded for the All-trac tank. It may interfere with the fuel lines, so it has to be hammered flat or cut off.

The biggest issue is the filler neck, the Tercel tank has it coming off the right front side on top, and the All-Trac tank, when oriented so it will fit, has it coming off the right rear top. Both have bolt on flanges, so it appears all we have to do is cut a hole in the right spot and mount the Tercel filler neck, and make a blanking plate for the old filler neck location. If the angle is off (which it might be) I think using a short length of rubber hose with large clamps will work fine. the Tercel already uses a short length of rubber hose on it to give the neck some flex, but it does not appear quite enough, so a longer length should do it. It might even be possible to get a long flexible rubber hose and go from the Tercel filler cap location to the current All-Trac tank inlet location, there appears to be enough room. The hose would make a larger "S" bend. I will have to consider each option when the time comes, but either is a viable. The most important issue of course is it must not leak, so I am tempted just to use the factory filler location. But a long curing rubber hose could be vulnerable to chafing and developing leaks. I will take apart the filler neck and get a closer look at the flange later, with enough sealant and a thick rubber gasket I think it will hold up fine. The sender wire connector has four wires, and the Tercel has three, so I do not know if this will be an issue or not. We might have to switch senders if we use the All-Track tank, and the mounting hole is a different size and has a different number of screws in it. Though the All-Trac sender might be made to work with the Tercel fuel gauge.

It appears it is possible to make a larger hole in the top of the stock Tercel tank and mount the internal pump. Presuming there is no baffles or other internal interference. Either way there will be some cutting and sealing and always a risk of a leak. The easiest way is to just use the stock tank with an external pump, a fuel pump at pull-a-part is only about $9. and there are plenty of cars that use external EFI pumps.

As for clutches, these are the only performance clutches I have found that fit the early Tercel flywheel.

http://cabrera.stores.yahoo.net/

http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Toyota/T ... 984/Single

The first one offer only their lowest "hp" performance clutch for the early Tercel it is a good price for $159. SPEC clutch ofter stage one, two and three clutches for the early Tercel for $239, $299 and $329. I thought when the time comes I would call both of them and see which one is better. I suspect the SPEC clutch is going to be more durable and might be worth the money, but If the Cabrera clutch has the same power rating than it might be a bargain.

Another thing I did at the Pull-a-part was try different front brakes on the Tercel. The corolla vented disk and caliper fit, but require shimming the disk out about 0.2". The '91-'92 Tercel (which also has vented disks) appears to swap right over with no shimming, I installed one caliper and disk right on to the '84 Tercel (it is still on it in fact). You have to switch left and right calipers since the hoses mount differently, or you can switch to the banjo type end on the brake line (which means buying new brake lines). I could not find any disk brakes for the rear, there were no MR2 or GTs there to try. Interestingly the Corolla caliper appeared dimensionally similar to the later Tercel caliper, but they were different assembly.

If anyone is interest in the Tercel at the Arlington pull-a-part, this is what I found: It is a DX, so it has the plastic seats (which were trashed), it is missing the hood and right front fender, but the bumpers, doors and rear hatch were there. It is light yellow, an automatic, and the head and intake/exhaust/carb were gone, as is most of the front trim, grill and lights. The gas tank is out, but I left it there.

The All-Trac is mostly complete with front end damage to the hood, radiator and grill. All mechanicals look good, it is the 4 door, not the wagon. But the rear axle assembly is there, and this can be adapted to the Tercel, it has the much heavier axles and diff, and it has 4.1:1 ratio (I was considering snagging it for my conversion). LSD rear ends are available to fit this heavier rear axle but this one did not have an LSD in it (I checked, it was a factory option). Interestingly the rear brake drums are the same as on the Tercel. The fuel tank and fuel pump are gone of course. :D
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
SynthDesign
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

Good work looking into the all-trac option for tanks. It would be great to get a little bit more capacity. As for the filler necks, I haven't seen the all-trac's tank but if it is close, something could probably be made to work.
Is the depth of the all-track about the same as the Tercel?
Would the Sender from the tercel work in the all-trac tank if the wire issue can't be solved?
What's the capacity of the all-trac tank?
Will the fuel pump be suitable? I'm thinking so.

Thanks for the links to the clutches. Exedy is no longer selling their stage one so now I have a few other options. I haven't heard of the first one, buy SPEC makes some great stuff. Cool that they have it for our T4WD too. I have driven a few SPEC clutches, the stage two in a miata and a stage 2plus in a 240sx turbo. Both had great feel and a good firm engagement point. SPEC may be the best offering towards a great reliable option.

For brakes I'm going to look into the MR2 compatibility as I have a number of sets from aw11's lying about. I think that the AE86 drum to disc adapter will work for our rear end. Adapting the e-brake cables may be an issue too. I'll try it later when I have time.

As for the headers. I tried the China one as well as the others. I compared it to a factory ae86 GTS and an OBX model. All will require a bit of work, the china one being the best option in my opinion. The factory one will not work with a power steering equipped tercel. The connecting flanges hit the rack. Not an option since it's cast iron. The OBX has a few major clearance issues. Plus it has no egr flange.

To make the SS China one work it will need to be cut before the 2 goes into one connector and be bent down to clear the unibody. A new 2 in to 1 connector may be required. Hopefully not. Either way a bit of work. I'm going to deal with it later as I can most likely cut it there and drive it to DanFast Muffler down the street to have them finish it with the rest of the exhaust.

The motor and trans are back out are starting to be disassembled for overhaul. I've never been so happy to have an empty garage stall :)
I have to commit next weekend to working on sort ratio rack and bushings for an mr2 so it's gonna be a week or two till I dig into the motor. The trans is pretty clean. I'm going to clean it up and hit it with the nasty polishing wheel. I was told by an old guy that if I polished it nice and buff on some teflon lubricant it would repel oil, water and grit fro sticking. Any other recommendations? Someone else mentioned Rainx works as well.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

My union welder friend just called me back. I might be able have him do the header soon. He's going to take a look at my info and the car now that the motor is out and figure out what he can do this week. Sweet!
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Petros
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros »

Synth wrote:
> As for the filler necks, I haven't seen the all-trac's tank but if it is close, something could probably be made to work.

The filler neck attach location is not that close, perhaps 6 inches aft and angled away from the Tercel location. But visually looking at the available space it looks like with a longer flexible filler it might be made to work. The more I thought about it the less I like the idea cutting new holes in a gas tank. So if I can not make the filler rerouting work I am going to use the stock tank with an external pump.

>Is the depth of the all-track about the same as the Tercel?

Yes, almost exactly the same height, the only difference there are a different number of fuel/return lines coming out the top in different locations.

>Would the Sender from the tercel work in the all-trac tank if the wire issue can't be solved?

Yes, but we would have to make an adapter plate since the size of the sender plate is larger on the All-trac, so that should not be a major problem.

>What's the capacity of the all-trac tank?

The owner's manual says 13.2 gal. That is what the Tercel is supposed to be, but there was a thread discussing this and I think this is false. The All-trac tank is 2 inches wider (same depth and front to back length), it looks like the we get the actual 13.2 gal, not the apparent 12 or so we actually have. It has been my observation with out All-trac that it will take 1-2 gallons more to fill from empty over the 11-12 it takes to fill a Tercel tank.

>Will the fuel pump be suitable? I'm thinking so.

Yes, I believe so too, the fuel system is very similar. The 4AGE will use a bit more capacity at full throttle, the pump should handle it. If these engines were highly tweaked to have a lot more power it might be undersized. Even so I am sure we can get higher cap pumps to fit in the same tank.

>To make the SS China one work it will need to be cut before the 2 goes into one connector and be bent down to clear the unibody. A new 2 in to 1 connector may be required. Hopefully not.

Rather than a new connector, might it be easier to cut off the connector at the strait section, and then lengthen the strait sections? You use strait tubes then rather than having to build-up a new 2 to 1 connector.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
SynthDesign
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

I can image the exhaust looking a bit like this. I'm not very good w/ cs3 but I gave photshop a try. Basicly the pipes can be cut before the 2 into 1 collector, and bent down , and another 2 bent sections added at the collector.
ae86 ss header 3 test copy.jpg
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SynthDesign
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

I started figuring out the power steering rack hoses. I measured them as M16x1.5 IF anyone else disagrees let me know, Petros....?
I found a website in GRM, Grass Roots Motorsports one of my favorite mags, for BAT. They do pretty much any hose fitting, metric or standard.
http://www.batinc.net/main.htm
Here's the catalog. for what I need.
http://64.202.180.37/files/metric.pdf

I need to order 2 banjos and corresponding bolts as well as the pressure hose end fitting and hose. Black and gold is good for me! They also have the oil pan weld in bung fitting.
So this will be replace with a low profile setup. Also options if you damage a line at the rack and can't get a replacement oem used one.
PS hoses.JPG
Looks about the same as Earls type stuff, but a wider range.
Another problem solved!
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros »

Actually you do not need custom hoses, though it would look real slick. You just carefully cut off the ends, get some high quality clamps, and use generic high pressure flex hose.

I think some of the better equipped NAPA stores can swag hose ends, also I have had them made locally right here in Arlington for an old tractor I used to own. Any places that services farm equipment can make these hoses. With all the Japanese, Korean and Chinese farm equipment sold in the US now, they should have metric fittings. It should not cost more than about $40-60 to make the hoses with all new fittings i would guess. How much for hose assemblies from the GRM?

It would be less if you can salvage any of the old one fittings. Or you can make your own for about $10-12. but not as nice.

I am not familiar with metric pipe thread on the power steering rack, but any good auto parts store can match a sample and tell you what it is. Best to know for sure how it is designated if you are going to mail order a custom hose assembly. Me I am going to try and assembly my own hoses, only buying what I have to.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by GTSSportCoupe »

Hey guys, I don't have the time to read carefully through this whole thread, but I did notice that SynthDesign is trying to sort out some gas tank issues. I just wanted to mention that I used to own a RWD 87 Toyota Corolla GTS (EFI 4age), and it had a VERY similar looking tank to the tercel's. I always thought that if I was going to do a 4age swap into my tercel, I'd grab the whole Corolla GTS tank, or at least try to swap the pump/sender part into the Tercel tank. I bet there is a good chance it would work. Maybe you've already sorted out the problem though.
Current:
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by peter_tuning »

flywheel 3a-C (U) have big diameter 246 mm
clutch diameter 127 mm in and 195 mm out
6 bolt

flywheel 4a-GE have big diameter 248 mm
clutch diameter 127 mm in and 200 mm out
8 bolt
SynthDesign
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

RE:peter_tuning
Not sure what your getting at. Yes they are close, but the 4age clutch assembly is a larger diameter too. A larger than 7 1/2 inch clutch disc and pressure plate will not fit into The T4WD wagon Trans. An 8 inch or 8 3/8 clutch disc and pressure plate out of a corolla or mr2 won't fit into the bell housing. I tried. the 200mm (8")burnt clutch disc assembly from my mr2 almost fit. The bell housing is about a 1/4" from bolting against the engine when I attempted before it bottomed out. I beleive this is the flywheel your referencing in the pics which uses the less common 200mm clutch versus the larger, later 212mm flywheel.



No progress on the swap, I've been sick.
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