Awful Tranny noise

[Logbear]

About 40 miles into my 43 mile commute to work this morning my Tercel started making a horrible noise. Growling, squeeling, groaning, all mixed together. This morning has been the coldest my Tercel has ever seen. 5 degrees when I left the house. But the noise started when I got into Seattle where the temperature was 21. The noise started when I was in 5th gear, continued in 4th gear, and then went silent in 3rd gear, then noisy again in 2nd and 1st.
When it was time to go home tonight through a snowstorm, I was hoping the noise would just not be there, but no such luck. Leaving the parking garage it made such a racket i thought something was just going to come apart and spread parts all over the road. But when I got in 3rd gear it was quiet as always. So I drove all the way home in 3rd gear. (30 to 40 MPH was just right for the snowy freeway) I tried 4th gear a couple of times but the noise was just too much for me to stomach. And then stopping at the store and burger joint the noise in 1st and 2nd was horrible again. Again I just got to 3rd gear quickly and had a nice smooth, quiet ride home. When I shifted down coming into my driveway the noise was enough to bring the kids out of the house to see what was happening.

The clutch doesn't chatter or do anything unusual. So I'm guessing the tranny is going bad. I've got 312,000 miles on my Tercel and as far as I know it's the original tranny. But why would all the gears except 3rd be noisy?

I've got a good tranny in a parts car, but I've never done a tranny swap. I've done several engine swaps, and front and rear axles. How hard is the tranny swap job? Or does anybody have any other ideas. I read some threads about water getting the freezing in the tranny I don't think that's the problem.

Should I just bite the bullet and learn to do a tranny swap?

[takza]

Hard to say what that noise is. I'd change out the gear oil and check the plugs for metal. Save the oil in a pan and let it set for 1/2 hour and use the sun or a light to look for a metallic sheen to the oil...or look for water in it?

When my trans went it was just a noisy bearing...sort of a white noise. What you have doesn't sound so good....

[Petros]

over 300k miles on a Tercel tranny? You have gone much farther than most, even with pampering they typically last about 200k. You are lucky to get 50 percent further than most of them, but it does sound like it is time for a new trans. You might try an oil change, but it sounds like at this point it would be a waste of time. If the individual gears get worn than they can make noise, more typically it will start with only one gear, I suppose if all were marginal, the ground metal in the oil would wipe out the others pretty fast. Odd it was in cold weather, usually the oil is thicker and it makes it more slippery, unless you have a lot of water mixed in with the oil.

How offen have you changed your trans oil? at all? moisture, sluge and metal partical build-up in the oil eventually wear out the hard parts.

Fear not the tranny change. Easier than doing an engine change, about as much work as doing a clutch job. First, drain it (and inspect the oil as noted), and from under the hood (before you jack it up), remove the clutch cable and the two larger bolts at the top of the bell housing (just below the head at the back of the engine, they are easier to get at from above), and remove the shift lever from inside the passanger compartment, than jack the car up and remove the front half shafts, then remove the rear drive shaft, speedo cable, exhaust mount and the 4wd/fwd linkage, and the side plates from the engine block to the sides of the trans. Put a jack under the trans and remove the bolts holding the cross member and lower the back of the trans, the back of the engine will rest against the fire wall (sometimes putting a block of wood here is helpful), and the trans will hang on engine. Unbolt the large bolts on the bell housing to the engine and starter, and unplug the fwd and reverse wire. The tranny will pull straite back and fall out (use a jack under to hold the weight, but it can be man-handled out if you are careful not to let it fall on you).

Some people find it is easier to remove the access plate on the trans behind the input shaft and withdraw it so you do not have to clear the in input shaft when you pull the trans. I have not found this any faster, though it might be easier for reinstalling it.

You might consider replacing your clutch when the trans is out. Reinstall in the reverse order. Besides the jack you should only need basic tools, sockets, extensions, a few open end wrenches.

It is an all day job, but it is strait forward. Good luck.

[Logbear]

Change the transmission oil? In hindsight that would have been a good preventive maintenance move. But no, I can't remember ever changing or even checking the transmission oil. I feel pretty bad about that now. Now that I can't drive my car in the snow!

When it's parked I can start it up with the clutch in and it's quiet. When I let the clutch out with the transmission in neutral the noise is horrible and it even shakes the car. I can still get it in gear and drive it to move it around but it sounds so bad I don't want to. I drove a little ways down our dirt road and 3rd gear is still quiet.

Anyway, I've never done the transmission/transaxle thing so I'm in need of some basic education.

Does the transaxle have to come out, or just the transmission? If it's just the transmission, can I leave the front axles on? How high do I have to jack up the car?

I'm working on an 86 Tercel 4WD wagon, 6 speed. I have a spare transmission that was in the back of a parts car I bought. How can I tell if the transmission I have will work as a swap? I haven't found any numbers on it. Any hints?

Or should I try to fix the tranny once it's out?

I get the feeling that once I get started on this job it will all make more sense and I will overcome my fear or the tranny.

Please feel free to pile on with hints, suggestions, education, etc. I appreciate it all!

[Logbear]

Could my problem just be the clutch or the throwout bearing? I've been reading through past threads and came across that thought.

[Petros]

Not likely it is the T/O bearing, though it is possible. You have to pull the transaxle to get the T/O bearing anyway. The tranny and front axle housing are the same, so it all comes out together. The half shafts have to be removed. Just start in on it and get it out, you will see it is not so bad when you are done.

It sounds like the input shaft is shot, this happens when it runs low on oil because it is the furthest from the oil supply. But your trans has A LOT of miles on it, it may have just worn out. I doubt they can be made to last forever.

You must determine what year car your spare trans came from. You can also put it in 5th and count the number of turns the input shaft takes to turn the output one complete revolution. This will tell you what final drive ratio you have in the front, it has to match what your car has in the back. '85 and newer used 4.1 to 1, and ''83-84 use 3.7 (something) to 1. Both front and rear diffs must match.

[Logbear]

OK, I'm going to do this. Does anybody have any suggestions on jack stands and a floor jack. I'm guessing a floor jack would be pretty useful and I've always wanted one. Now would be a good time to get one. Sears has a floor jack and two jack stands for $49.99. Will I need four jack stands for this job, or can I get by with just two. I have a couple of old ones that I don't really like, but they do work.

When I remove the front axles can I leave the hub on the axle, or do I just do this like an axle change?

What I'm really trying to do is postpone this until it warms up but then there will just be slush and mud everywhere. I should just go out there and get it done. Any further encouragement would be appreciated!

[sdoan]

I've pulled the trans from under the car and it really helps to get it as high as possible. I would think 2 stands would be enough provided you could put the rear tires on blocks.

The trans is heavy, awkward and badly unbalanced by the front differential on the right side. The trans does not sit on a floor jack well - even one with a larger 6" pan. I would think that a jack with the small pan 2.5 or 3" would be near impossible. Despite this, some form of jack is a requirement. I balanced the trans on the jack, then me and my roommate climbed under the car and bench pressed it into place. There are special transmission jacks, it may be possible to rent one, but you would need to roll it on a concrete floor.

Installing the trans is a very tight fit and I removed the input shaft to get it in (it is removable for this purpose). Petros suggests you don't have to remove the input shaft, but I don't see how.

I pulled and replaced my trans in a dry, warm garage, but I've since pulled and replaced engines from these cars twice. It's more work to pull the engine, then the trans, but more of the work is standing rather than laying on your back. I've told myself that the next time I pull the trans I'm not doing it from under the car, instead I'll pull the engine to get at it. (but I haven't actually had to do this yet so I might change my mind)

When you pull the axles you can leave the hubs attached - I just unbolt them at the lower ball joint and push the struts outward. You may have to separate the tierod end tapers and unbolt the calipers and hang them on a coat hanger (so as not to strain the brake hoses) to get the last little bit of distance but I don't think so.

Do you have a dry place to work with a concrete floor? It's a complex job and there are lots of parts to keep track of and keep clean.

Best of luck - let us know how it goes.

[Petros]

I have pulled and replaced the tranny on the Tercel a number of different ways: only using a floor jack, to hold the weight and then I wrestled it into position by my self. Two jacks work better, I used a floor jack and a simple scissors jack. You balance it on the floor jack, and use the scissors jack to hold it stable and align it. I have also used blocks of wood under the trans, with a longer board to lever up the trans into position (it helps to have two sets of hands). I have never felt it necessary to remove the input shaft. I have also removed the engine, and then removed the trans, I have also removed and reinstalled the engine and tranny together (not a bad way to go if the engine is coming out anyway and you have an engine hoist). but if your only need to R and R the trans, than just do the trans alone, it is less work. A simple trans jacks is a big help, but not necessary. One thing I have been meaning to try is to make a wood frame or cradle to hold the trans on the jack and use it to install the trans.

I have removed the trans without removing the half shafts, by pulling them out from the wheel hubs, and leaving them in the trans and pulling them together, but that adds a lot of weight to the trans. I have also removed the trans leaving the outboard ends of the axles in the hubs (I unbolted the bottom of the struts so they can swing out to allow you remove the other end from the trans) and just popped them out from the trans and left them hanging. This actually saved some work. Overall if the axles are coming out anyway, it was easier just to remove them all together since they get in the way when you have to reinstall the trans.

So anyway you may want to pull a trans, I have done it, or tried it. I have even done it outside in blow freezing weather in the dark (with lots of big lamps to keep my hands warm and provide light) on a gravel driveway. A garage with a concrete floor is better. I have only needed two jacks stands and one floor jack min. and blocking the rear tires. It is handy to jack one rear wheel up, at least part of the time, to allow you to turn the drive shaft to unbolt it.

So there is more than one way to remove a Tercel4wd trans. At minimum one jack, two jack stands, and a lot of blocks of wood, and be prepared to do muscle work get creative.

Good luck.

[Logbear]

I will have to work on a gravel floor, but at least I'm under cover.

Petros, of all the ways you done this job, which one would you recommend for a first timer?

[takza]

I R&Rd the trans by itself. Pulling it out was no issue...but you need to try and keep the weight off the shaft as you do. Getting one back in is a little harder...need to jimmy it around and don't force it. I just used a scissors jack and some blocks of wood to position it going in...with a 2x4 between the engine and the firewall...need to watch the dist? Just dropped it onto a stack of wood blocks going out. I did a writeup with some pics.

Real issue is do you have a good replacement? I put everything in neutral before putting it in....though I guess I put it in gear and 4WD to try and line up the splines.

[Petros]

Petros, of all the ways you done this job, which one would you recommend for a first timer?

If I was to do it it would be the way I wrote it up on my first post, from the bottom (the least amount of work). jack it as high as you safely can, you will appreciate teh extra room. If you do not need to replace the axles, it would save a time to leave them in the the wheel hubs, unbolt the bottom of the strut (this allows you to swing the struts out far enought to pop out the inboard splines), pop out the inboard slpines and let the axles hang. Wire them up out of the way, and watch the brake line does not get too much tension (IIRC there was enought slack so you do not have to remove the calipers, but even if you do you still do not have to remove a brake line which means bleading the brakes), the steering tie rods can also stay in place. Place a large piece of plywood over the gravel under the trans, it allows you roll the jack back and fourth while you are removing it (that is what I usually do in my driveway). It should come out fine, getting it back in on gravel is more tricky, but I have done with lots of blocks, scissor jacks and muscle.

I do not think you are that far from me, PM me if you get stuck I can drop by in the evening.

Good luck.

[SynthDesign]

Remember to break the axle nuts loose before you get it up in the air. Trust me...


I prefer pulling motor and trans together out the front with a cherry picker. Never again will I sit pinned underneath my car by a 80lb trans while my friends laughed hysterically. Also this lasted about 4 hours before I could get the input shaft to line up with the clutch.
If needed label everything with tape. You don't even have to remove the front bumper when pulling it out the front as a whole with a cherry picker. It also gives you a chance to look the whole motor over as well.

[jebudallaha]

I'm having a problem very similar to logbear. I'm in Portland and got hit with the same cold snap. For a day I had horrible noises coming from the transmission (fine in 2nd and 5th at first) then the next day I wasn't able to get the car in gear at all, so I'm pretty sure the clutch went out (it was about time for it to go anyways) so you may want to check out your clutch before swapping out the trannys.

So I got a new clutch and I'm trying to get it in, but I'm having a hell of a time getting getting the transmission off, I can't pull it back far enough because the clutch release lever keeps hitting the undercarriage. I heard that popping the input shaft makes it so you can drop it straight down but it is very difficult to get to the input shaft cover. So to those of you who have successfully pulled the tranny on a 1983 could you offer any advice?

As for logbear, I'm using a floor jack with a piece of wood strapped to it, and it seems to be working well. I would also recommend removing the front drive shafts(I pulled mine with the axle hubs still attached), its not too difficult and will help a lot when trying to get the tranny in and out.

I'm going to try and get the new clutch in tomorrow and I'll get back to you whether or not that was the issue.

[Petros]

I have never had the clutch lever get in the way, I seem to recall that when you drop the back of the tranny there is enough room for the lever to clear the tunnel. Once you back the trans off the clutch spline the aft end of the trans should drop even further relative to the back of the engine, allowing the lever to clear.

If not, how about loosening the engine mounts just enough to allow the back of the engine to come down so the lever clears the tunnel. I too have found it more trouble to reach the input shaft cover than simply pull the tranny further back to get it off the clutch. Which is why I have never done it that way before.