engine swaps done by tercel owners?

[Typrus]

The 5SFE sitting in my Camry has a balance shaft, gear-driven off the cam.
All pro reman units I've found "have the balance box deleted due to corrected manufacturer defects." or the likes.
If I ever have it taken apart I'll get it balanced properly and remove the pesky counter-shaft. Heck, looking into some built ones, they remove it for the sense it removes a significant amount of weight. And windage. And we're talking on higher-revving machines. With boost. Rawr.
2.2L btw.

When I weighed the con-rods and pistons, rings out, after removing all the carbon, the largest gap was about a 20 gram stretch. Thats just in the rods and pistons. This was in my green engine.

I had the reman unit I threw in the white 85 Auto balanced out. All 4 cyls running 215PSI. Balanced with the reman Harmonic Balancer. Unfortunatly I have to take it out of balance to witness the HB as they pressed the outer ring on wrong and I can't time it quite right. So I'll have to pull it off the Silver this summer.
That thing doesn't feel much different in free-rev than the Silver's does. And its never been cracked open to my knowledge.

[keith]

You cannot "balance out" the natural vibrations of a 4 cylinder engine. For engines below 2 liters, the vibrations are usually not noticeable. Above 2 liters, things really rock so to speak. The balance shafts provide a counter force to these vibrations and I would strongly urge that they not be removed.

If I were to buy a reman engine larger that 2 liters that these had been removed from, I'd be shopping elsewhere. These are not "bandaid engineering" for poor workmanship. The real problem with reman places is that they don't know how to align these things up correctly, which make the vibrations worse.

I see people all the time complain how rough their engines are after a timing belt replacement because the mechanic didn't get the balance shafts lined up correctly.

[Typrus]

Good thing mine is gear-driven off the crank internally and has nothing whatsoever to do with the t-belt. You'd think they'd witness them and keep it easy like that.

If the vibes can't be safe without them, then why are $8000+ project engines, some turbo'd and spinning rather healthy revs having them removed with little to no detriment? I'm not being rude, enlighten me. I'd actually be interested in finding out why. Is it that things "smooth" out at revs?

[ARCHINSTL]

If I were to buy a reman engine larger that 2 liters that these had been removed from, I'd be shopping elsewhere. These are not "bandaid engineering" for poor workmanship. The real problem with reman places is that they don't know how to align these things up correctly, which make the vibrations worse.

This is interesting...not to dis' your opinion, but is the Mitsu motor different than the engines you guys are talking about?
Again, I have noticed no difference with my 2.6 with or without the Silent Shafts.
And again, with Jasper having the sterling reputation that it does, I would really doubt its word on the Mitsu motors. I also don't know if it was talking about all Mitsu motors or just the 2.0/2.6 motors or just the ones for trucks or ? Did any other Mitsu motors use the Silent Shafts?
Tom M.

[keith]

If the vibes can't be safe without them, then why are $8000+ project engines, some turbo'd and spinning rather healthy revs having them removed with little to no detriment? I'm not being rude, enlighten me. I'd actually be interested in finding out why. Is it that things "smooth" out at revs?

High performance engines use lighter pistons and rods, this reduces the vibrations. But they still occur. Also in racing applications, smoothness isn't the first priority. The balance shafts do rob about 15 HP from an engine.

[keith]

This is interesting...not to dis' your opinion, but is the Mitsu motor different than the engines you guys are talking about?
Again, I have noticed no difference with my 2.6 with or without the Silent Shafts.
And again, with Jasper having the sterling reputation that it does, I would really doubt its word on the Mitsu motors. I also don't know if it was talking about all Mitsu motors or just the 2.0/2.6 motors or just the ones for trucks or ? Did any other Mitsu motors use the Silent Shafts?
Tom M.

I'm curious as to just how you know that the balance shafts were removed. Did you open up the engine? I'd also be interested in how this engine didn't throw out all its oil immediately on start up without the shafts in place.

All Mitsubushi 2.6l motors used the silent shafts.

[ARCHINSTL]

Well, that's what the installer told me, and then I called Jasper to verify, as I thought the Silent Shafts were so important and integral to the motor.
I'm giving a cursory glance in the FSM (I bought those back in '88 from Dodge - $35 compared to the gold-edged Toy FSMs), and it does not appear that their removal would lead to oil upchucking (it would seem logical that the shafts' "ends" are not open to the outside).

To quote from the FSM's engine description at the start of the 2.6 section (also identical to that of the 2.0 motor):
"The silent shaft system cancels the vertical vibration force of the engine and secondary vibrating forces such as the vibrating moment in the rolling direction. The silent shafts are located in the upper left(rearward side) and lower right (forward side) of the cylinder block.
The left shaft rotates in the same direction as the crankshaft while the right shaft rotates in the opposite direction at twice the crankshaft speed. Each silent shaft is supported by two aluminum bearings."

Would the aluminum bearings be some kind of Achilles Heel? Although one would think (hope) that Mitsu was positive of the usage.
Again, I figured that Jasper knew what it was doing and no reason to be less than truthful with me.
Comments?
Tom M.

[keith]

One end is open to the outside, so the belt or chain can drive it. Honda uses the same system and they had a recall for several year models because of defective seals. When a seal popped out, the oil would get pumped out in minute or so.

You could remove them and cap the hole with a freeze plug I suppose. Nissan puts them below the crankshaft, in the oil pan. Some Nissan owners remove them because of concern about wipping up the oil into a foam at high RPM. Since they are fully immersed in the oil and can't catch air, I don't think that actually happens.

I question that Jasper removed the silent shafts because from what I've been able to find out, that is not their policy on standard remans. They may do that on their class 2 High Performance engines though. Those engines have lighter rotating components and again, smoothness isn't the high priority here.

[todd0]

i bought a new 80' plymouth sapporo (mitsu made). i liked the car overall.
it had the 2.6 motor, i didnt really feel it was quieter than my aunts toyota camry of the same vintage. but her car certainly got better mileage than mine, and i felt the 2.6 was underpowered as well.

[ARCHINSTL]

I question that Jasper removed the silent shafts because from what I've been able to find out, that is not their policy on standard remans.

Well, you have certainly piqued my curiousity. I will send an email to Jasper and ask again.

I saved my contact information, as I had also asked if an installer ignored its instructions constituted a voiding of the warranty...the jerks did not install new motor mounts, as Jasper required - they also did not install new vac tubing (16 years-old at the time), and the manifold hot air tube to the snorkel. When queried, they said "it wasn't necessary." Being in business myself, those were errors is selling as well as errors in following directions. Plus - they screwed up the AC repair and denied it - and also did not fix the hot exhaust valve failure resulting in it routing into the air cleaner - so the poor NEW engine was breathing exhaust! I found and fixed those latter items myself..
I'll report back in a few.
Tom M.

[keith]

I would like to be clear here. You can delete the balance shafts, it won't hurt anything, just that the engine won't be as smooth. The point I was trying to make when I jumped in here is that you can't balance the roughness out and that the balance shafts are not "bandaid" engineering.

Four cylinder engines have always been rough, but small displacement and heavy flywheels have been sufficient in the past. Today we have 4 cylinder engines that are as large as many six cylinder engines were in the past.

Early Falcon and Valiant engines had between 2.3 and 2.6L There are even v6 and v8 engines with balance shafts today, though they really aren't needed as much, except those 90° V6's. Only the inline 6 doesn't need a balance shaft for smoothness. They are the only engine that is inherently balanced, well them and the V12.

[Typrus]

Heh.
I know the 5SFE bal shaft is fully internalized.
V-16's are pretty smooth. Lol....
Meh. 4's are just getting as big as they used to be. I'm talking look up the Model T and Model A 4-cyls. Big guys. 3.3L I-4 anyone? lol.

[neonsport]

Well, that's what the installer told me, and then I called Jasper to verify, as I thought the Silent Shafts were so important and integral to the motor.
I'm giving a cursory glance in the FSM (I bought those back in '88 from Dodge - $35 compared to the gold-edged Toy FSMs), and it does not appear that their removal would lead to oil upchucking (it would seem logical that the shafts' "ends" are not open to the outside).

To quote from the FSM's engine description at the start of the 2.6 section (also identical to that of the 2.0 motor):
"The silent shaft system cancels the vertical vibration force of the engine and secondary vibrating forces such as the vibrating moment in the rolling direction. The silent shafts are located in the upper left(rearward side) and lower right (forward side) of the cylinder block.
The left shaft rotates in the same direction as the crankshaft while the right shaft rotates in the opposite direction at twice the crankshaft speed. Each silent shaft is supported by two aluminum bearings."

Would the aluminum bearings be some kind of Achilles Heel? Although one would think (hope) that Mitsu was positive of the usage.
Again, I figured that Jasper knew what it was doing and no reason to be less than truthful with me.
Comments?
Tom M.

The Mitsubishi shafts are removed because of a serious design flaw. The chain that drives the balance shafts is weak, and when it lets go, the engine stops spinning right now! It'll damage the block beyond repair. If you find one of those engines in a junkyard car and the head isn't cracked, the block likely is, from the balance shaft locking up.

I know this from a mechanic friend who specialized in working on those engines. He hated them, but he made good money from them.