Hello!! hybrid

Cbob · Post by **Cbob** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:26 pm

Is there seriously no information out there on tercel hybrid conversion. I cannot believe that I am the only one asking this. Shouldn't every tercel owner, and driver want a vehicle that is cheaper to drive?

Post by **Mattel** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:44 pm

Hi Cbob,

It's already been done!

viewtopic.php?t=2875&highlight=hybrid

can someone in Colorado try give this guy a call sometime? It would be interesting to see how he did it

Post by **ARCHINSTL** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:48 pm

I tried the email contact from the paper when this was first posted back in '05 or '06, but it was no good. It seems like someone in the area (Typrus?) also tried to no avail at a later date.

Cbob - Welcome to the Club.
However, as much as I love the T4WD, I think it would be more practical to attempt some sort of hybrid/electric conversion with a more modern car - the newest of our little guys is 20 years old, after all...
When you mention "cheaper to drive," you must factor miles driven per year, cost therein - and then the cost of the conversion to the preferred mode. The conversion cost would probably buy a lot of gasoline... And then there is the loss of space utility needed for the conversion equipment - and the range to be considered. I have a feeling that the gentleman's conversion took up at least most of the luggage space, if indeed it did not also spill over into the rear seat area.
Tom M.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:38 pm

I found the guy who built the car and e-mailed him asking for info/pics.

he said hes on a business (i assume) road trip and that he will fill me in when he gets back.

neonsport · Post by **neonsport** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:24 am

ARCHINSTL wrote:I tried the email contact from the paper when this was first posted back in '05 or '06, but it was no good. It seems like someone in the area (Typrus?) also tried to no avail at a later date.

Cbob - Welcome to the Club.
However, as much as I love the T4WD, I think it would be more practical to attempt some sort of hybrid/electric conversion with a more modern car - the newest of our little guys is 20 years old, after all...
When you mention "cheaper to drive," you must factor miles driven per year, cost therein - and then the cost of the conversion to the preferred mode. The conversion cost would probably buy a lot of gasoline... And then there is the loss of space utility needed for the conversion equipment - and the range to be considered. I have a feeling that the gentleman's conversion took up at least most of the luggage space, if indeed it did not also spill over into the rear seat area.
Tom M.

I've put a fair amount of thought into the idea of a hybrid Tercel wagon. There are many ways to go, but the two I've leaned toward would be quite different. The first, harder, more expensive, but potentially more drivable, would be to buy a wrecked low-mileage gen 1 Prius (could also be done with a Honda Insight), and converting a FWD Tercel wagon to a transverse layout. We did some measuring at the dealership, looked at a somewhat abandoned Prius (a lot), decided it could be done, but it'd take more electrical talent than I have. The cost of the wrecked car could run as low as a couple of grand, then figure in another few minimally if you could do most of the wrenching yourself. All the diagnostic circuitry and the Prius instrumentation and controls would have to be used. The batteries would take up minimal space, but the car would be limited as far as aerodynamics. One plus would be that the converted Tercel should weigh less than a Prius. A second Gen Prius would give better electronics and fuel economy, but it would be considerably more expensive.

BTW, with a Prius drivetrain, you're limited to a CVT (automatic) transmission. An Insight swap would allow for a 5 speed, but it'd only have a 3 cylinder engine. Neither would be practical for use with a 4WD Tercel.

The old-school approach would be to remove the stock engine, replace it with a surplus jet starter motor adapted to the stock transmission, mount a small commercial diesel engine (2 cylinder preferably) to drive a generator/alternator array, and pile in the batteries. With careful planning, you could probably fit as many as 6 of the drive batteries in the reworked engine compartment, but you'd have to run some in the rear as well. Personally, I'd probably ditch the rear seat, build a really strong battery box to contain them in case of an accident, then run the rest of the batteries side-by-side where the seat used to be, with a removable cargo floor to finish it off. With this arrangement, the car would run constantly off electric power, and with the right charging system, it could probably have a 100% duty cycle. The fuel mileage could be incredible, and this would be the cheaper way to build it. Unfortunately, it would also increase the weight considerably.

BTW, the basics for this conversion were spelled out in a Mother Earth News article and plan set about 30 years ago, using an Opel GT. I knew a guy who built one using the plans, and it was a slick setup. The plans are still available.

takza · Post by **takza** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:04 am

With the T4WD..I'd take advantage of that rear axle and weight capacity...elect motor on the rear diff...batts in the back. You'd plug it in and use batt power for short trips...the engine otherwise? Simplistic?

Post by **ARCHINSTL** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:03 am

Hmmmm.....a 2-seater T4WD (c/o to 2WD?) with no luggage capacity.
Look on eBay for an Isetta - or if you have bucks, a Smart Car.

Tom M.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:51 pm

the guy got back to me!

My objective was to buy a near new front wheel drive Rav4 or similarlight weight suv and add electric to the rear axle. I looked undermany of them and decided it would be do-able to get a rear assemblefrom a wrecked 4wd, mount the electric motor forward of the axledirectly to the body, and make a short "two u-joint" shaft to connectto the fixed differential. The 2wd bodies still have the drive shafthump.

When a friend decided to get a Prius, I bought her Tercel to check outthe performance gain of the idea at much less cost. The Terceldifferential jumps up and down with the rear axle so I had to modifythings to fit this vehicle.

I mounted the electric motor about 2" forward of the rear differentialpointing toward the front. Modified the back half of the drive shaftto connect to the electric motor. The motor was bolted to the thebody pan through home made rubber mounts and "clamping" large washers,under the rear seat. That was the only location the motor would fit.So now I had a front wheel drive vehicle that that could go on gas,electric, or both.

I found that by using the electric only during acceleration was thebest mode. That gave me a mileage increase from 30 to 40 mpg in town,using my frugal style of driving (using 1st, 3rd, and 5th gears). Theproblem is that 280 lbs of batteries (48v at 100 Ahr) only gave me 10miles of range before they were depleted. I later added two morebatteries (420 lbs, 72v, 100 Ahr) and eventually fried the motor.

I concluded that going straight electric was the better route.

Dave Mustoe

pretty neato, but looks like it was a bust. I'm sure someone could come up with a better system that would give you more range, but it will still be a far cry from a prius.

neonsport · Post by **neonsport** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:09 pm

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternat ... c-Car.aspx

I'm telling you, if you seriously want to do something like this, start with what has already worked for someone else. This system would be easily adaptable to the Tercel.

Mickey_D · Post by **Mickey_D** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:25 pm

Neonsport's got the right idea.

If you didn't want to modify the existing engine, you could always mount an Advance DC 6" shunt field motor in a hump built under the passenger's seat, then belt drive it to a pulley on the rear drive shaft.

Rewire the controller so that regenerative braking could be engaged at highway speeds to use the motor as a generator to recharge the battery pack, which would take the place of the spare tire and a reasonable amount of the rear cargo area, and as much of the area under the rear seat as possible. Put a second alternator in and bypass the regulator so that the output voltage goes up to the 120V maximum and use it as a generator to help recharge the batteries as well.

Hook the motor controller up so that it applies full power to the motor when the carb's secondaries open, in other words when you need more power. But at other times use the already fairly efficient gas engine that's there.

You'd probably add about 400-500 pounds to the car, but if you used it as a plug-in hybrid, you could definitely see a performance increase and a fairly good fuel economy increase due to not having to have to stomp the loud pedal as hard or for as long when coming off the line.

It would be a poor man's hybrid and wouldn't give you nearly the mileage gains a Prius or Insight would, but it would certainly be a LOT easier to implement than trying to match either of the production versions.

Post by **ARCHINSTL** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:02 am

OK - - -
So you'd wind up with a Tercel partial-Wagon with none or little luggage space, no place for the spare tire (mount on roof = lots of drag), no passenger (front?rear?) seat, ability to carry ? passengers, sagging rear end, lousy braking and poor front wheel traction because the front end would be raised up because of the minimum 20% overall (!) weight increase in the rear...

Am I missing something? Trading utility / carrying capacity / safety for a (relatively) few more mpg?

Mind, I am not dissin' the concept, but the execution on our vintage vehicles seems pointless from a cost/benefit standpoint.
Tom M.

neonsport · Post by **neonsport** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:12 am

I'm not saying to do it, this would just be the most practical way to go from the standpoint of retaining 4WD. It wouldn't require the sacrifice of all or even most of the cargo area, in fact the cargo are could be left intact. Yes, it would increase weight, and I wouldn't even consider the swap for my current Tercel. However, properly built, it could considerably increase the fuel mileage, which is what the OP seemed most concerned about.

The current crop of hybrids makes a lot of people ask questions like the thread starter. It's all been done before, a few times well, mostly not.

The most practical thing you can do to your Tercel from a fuel economy standpoint (assuming an engine that's strong mechanically) is to tune it to perfection and learn the most efficient way to drive it. Efficient driving is the reason I can beat highway EPA on any car I've ever driven, including the Prius. When I was selling, I could close almost any nervous Prius driver by taking them on a 10 mile loop with me behind the wheel.