won't idle...just dies but will come out of it

[Don Jorgensen]

First time it happened was on a really rough 10 miles of trail going over Mt. Taylor last August. Got to the 9,000 plus pass and he just wouldn't idle. Ran fine but as soon as I went to neutral and let off the throttle he would die. I figured that all that sloshing around caused the car to suck up some gook from the bottom of the gas tank. Coming down the mountain.. it came out of it and once back in town I put a bottle of isopropel in the tank. No problems until a week ago last Friday. Filled the tank and went the 1/2 mile home. Next day driving in slush up about 7,000 feet elv. the same thing occured. This time it came and went so I figured I got a tank of bad gas. Again put in isoprolel and also tried out some sea foam ( pricy stuff) and put 2/3 in the tank and drizzled the rest down the carb. Ran good all week then he acted up on Thursday evening so I topped the tank off with some ethanol 91 octane. No help there. Saturday I put in a Niehoff carb kit from Checkers. Basically the same problem afterwards. I still think gas has something to do with it because of the intermittant nature but I would have thought with that much isopropel, sea foam, and ethanol, it would override most moisture/gook. I wonder about vacuum leaks contributing but they wouldn't come and self heal.
I am open to suggestions.
thanks

[takza]

Easiest thing to try would be a new fuel filter...I seen Corollas stop running when they plug up.

Could have an air leak in your gas line...pulling air instead of gas?

Check your gas cap...it has two valves in it...one to let air in and one to let vapors out...IF the pressure differential gets to be too high. Since you are talking mt passes....

[Don Jorgensen]

So I started to systematically replace stuff. Fuel filter first...no change..did the gas cap next...no change. Ran diagnostics on all the things the Big Tercel Repair guide suggests for rough idle and dies. Decided to go to the new Super U Pull it and see what I could scrounge. Found an 86 Tercel hatchback with on 75k...carb looked new and I removed it and all the EC system with vacuum lines intact. Replaced everything on my Tercel except the charcoal canister. Car started up fine and had to do some minor adjusting but even with all this stuff replaced, it idled rough and died. I set the idle up to 2,000 rpm and let him run for 1/2 hour in the driveway. Did some full throttle runs up the boulevard then some 45 mph sustained 2nd gear 6,000 rpm runs up and down a mile stretch. Backed off the idle rpm to about 1,200 and although still rough didn't die. Then it started to run smooth and the rpm went up. Then it went down, ran rough and died. I'm back to my original diagnosis...bad fuel. I feel like going back out onto the boulevard and doing some more high rpm runs but there is a part of me that just wants to do some full throttle peak rpm power shifts. Alas the Tercel wouldn't take the punishment. In the late 60's, I used to lash out with a testosterone rush on the 63 Chevy II SS. I built up a small block with 4 bolt main 327, 780 Holly with headers, a rock crusher Muncie 4 speed and 486 posi rear end. 6,000 rpm out of the Chevy II came fast and furious. Full throttle power shifts were wild and crazy and left some tough to challenge burn out tracks. I think I'm going to rest now.

[splatterdog]

Try checking power and ground at the 1st fuel cut solenoid on the carb. If that's ok, with key on, unplug and plug it and you should hear a click.


Just had to fix a bad ground on my 83 FJ60's solenoid. If it isn't working there won't be any fuel at both idle and off idle.

[Don Jorgensen]

Did a few more things like checking fuel shut off selenoids..have 3 ..no change..checked for vacuum leaks at the brake booster, charcoal canister...disabled the EBVC and moved the vacuum line from the carburetor horn to the port where the line went to the EBVC down at the carb base and he started to idle fine. Now when under power at anywhere above 1500 rpm he surges. Runs great under full throttle.

So I've spent more time with this than it took to change the whole engine.

I'm about to purchase a Weber online. Webercarbsdirect has a 34 DGEC for $249 and a 32/36 DGEV for $399. Anyone know the difference and or suggestions? I'd like to have an electric choke but I grew up with manual chokes so it isn"t a big deal to me.

[takza]

Disable the EGR as a test?

[Snax]

I'm about to purchase a Weber online. Webercarbsdirect has a 34 DGEC for $249 and a 32/36 DGEV for $399. Anyone know the difference and or suggestions? I'd like to have an electric choke but I grew up with manual chokes so it isn"t a big deal to me.

I just bought my 32/36 DGEV here a couple of months ago:
http://www.racetep.com/weber/toyocarskit.html

It's only $298.50 there.

I will say that it should not be expected to be a cure of all driveability problems. I still have yet to figure out how to keep mine running when cold after the choke goes off without just turning the idle stop in for a higher idle rpm. It also still dies on occassion while coasting down to stops even after it's fully warmed up. Throw in the slightly sticky linkage at the throttle cam, and the stock carb doesn't seem so bad in comparison - if it's working right. The up side is that the Weber is dirt simple to understand and adjust.

[keith]

I had a sticky throttle because I replaced part of the Weber linkage with some of the linkage off the original carburetor and tightened it down too much. I loosened it and added a spring as shown in this picture

[Don Jorgensen]

So Takza...I disabled the EGR and nothing changed..I further checked the fuel solenoids and found a 1/8" piece of ? cable wire came out with the unit that may have allowed the click but not function...nothing changed. Came in and read some previous threads about rough idle from Uuberdoober? from early Nov talked about moving some vacuum lines. I stated earlier that this helped but the surging began then. I split the line coming down from the horn going to the port on the lower carb by the air mixture adjustment and got some level of success. He idles fine and the surges at 2,000 rpm are much less.

quote]Snax stated, I will say that it should not be expected to be a cure of all driveability problems. I still have yet to figure out how to keep mine running when cold after the choke goes off without just turning the idle stop in for a higher idle rpm. It also still dies on occassion while coasting down to stops even after it's fully warmed up. Throw in the slightly sticky linkage at the throttle cam, and the stock carb doesn't seem so bad in comparison - if it's working right. The up side is that the Weber is dirt simple to understand and adjust.[

Given what Snax has to say above, I'll hold off the purchase and drive him this way. Much improved.

Thanks to this forum for all the suggestions.
Don

[Don Jorgensen]

Well I gotta say since Xmas I've spent a lot of spare time hanging out under the hood of theTercel. If you've read the previous comments I've made about things checked, rechecked, vacuum leak checking, carburetor rebuild, check and recheck vacuum line connections...all to no avail. The changes I made to routing vacuum lines resulted in a better running motor but dang poor mileage. Even took the manifold off and replaced gasket thinking huge hidden vacuum leak...no help there either.

Finally against all my reasoning and checking I decided to get a rebuilt carb from an outfit in Colorado. Cost $229 plus the core charge. Sort of anticlimactic but Nope ....didn't help a bit...but the tech at the importcarbs.com was very helpful in suggesting where I should look next.

Symptoms ...rough surging idle and dies below 1500. Lots of raw gas going down the primary..No vacuum at some ports of the carb. He suggested that the 1st fuel solenoid shut off be checked. Well I've done that several times not only checking off the battery but plugging and unplugging the solenoid with the ignition switch on and I've gotten positive clicks. Even went so far as to take the solenoid off and look at the little end needle move on activation. Well the tech suggested that I could plug the solenoid hole with a bolt and check that way.. What do I have to loose at this point? The rebuilt carb looks really good sittin there so I take one of 5 solenoids I have begging to be put in service and I saw off the business end, clear of any burrs and saw stuff and install it.

I'm back in the saddle again. Immediately the motor smooths out and after adjustments I now can idle surge free at 650, the fast idle kicks in when the AC is on, no more surging, and at this point the engine does not run on when the ignition is shut down.

So I haven't fixed the problem but I know that the 1st fuel shut off solenoid is not activating. I will have to trace where the voltage is lost to the solenoid but I'm not in any hurry. Going back up to Taylor Peak and do some touring.

[terkill]

Good luck on finding why the first solenoid isnt activating!

but i have a couple random tips.. not sure if this has been tested or mention already, since I browsed through to get the quick story, but, This same thing happened to my neighbors civic. He was going to give it to me if i fixed it, but he cheaped out, but take out the EGR valve and bring it to an auto zone and they will test it. Its usually that.. or i guess a throttle position sensor. Some other guesses would be a short in the distributor cables?

[Don Jorgensen]

Oh just one more thing.
Had to take him for emissions tests here in Bernillio Co. NM. Didn't pass O2 at idle. Surmised that all the raw gas pouring down the primaries due to the 1st. fuel cut off solenoid electric failure has puicked the catylitic converter. Wouldn't be so bad but a year ago I replaced the catylitc converter just to cover 240,000 miles of stuff flowing thru. Yup another $106 later and I'm legal again. Feels good to have him running good and having passed emissions tests. I don't think I fretted this much at my graduate degree exams.....but I guess that time does level out highs and lows. Now on to some cruisin and enjoying the countryside.
p.s. the autozone fuel cap I purchased just 6 months ago did not pass the emissions test and the tech said that he has seen this often. I did not tell him it was an autozone cap.....he could tell what brand it was?
So I went down the street and got a Walmart "Stanza" cheapie.... passed fine..

[Neu]

thank god i dont have to worry about this safety and emissions crap.

Thank you oregon.

[Don Jorgensen]

Correction
It was the Carbon Monoxide that failed at high rpm

I don't know too much about Oregon air quality but Bernalillo Co. NM has times when the air doesn't move around much and the mountains keep air pollution locked in.

I spent the summer of 2000 in Panama City, Panama. Now they could have used some clean air standards. Only time you could take a deep breath was about 4am.

We've made a lot of progress in the USA and I appreciate what the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts have accomplished since the early 70's.

I guess I should move these comments to general .....sorry

[Neu]

oregon's pretty sparcely populated compared to other states, and the only place I know of in oregon that has emissions is portland.