Brake problem
Thanks for the link. I have argued against these myths for years and most people just think I'm wacko. The rotors probably match, they're from China so who knows for sure. Autozone specials. This has been a deteriorating problem. The symptoms have not changed over several brake jobs, just gotten more severe. The rear brakes are tight, in fact a little tighter than I'm normally comfortable.
I'm back, and the brakes are getting worse yet. Last weekend I went through 4 reman master cylinders from autozone before I got one that looked halfway decent. I think it has a problem though, more about that later.
I checked the rotors on the car, no run-out. Took them off and went to O'Rielly's to put them on the lathe to check again, still no run-out. Took a tiny bit off each surface to rough them up, these are only a couple months old and only have a couple thousand miles on them. Still 10.8 mm thick.
Took the autozone ceramic pads out, they were cracked, and took them back and got Duralast semi-metalics. I've had good luck with them in the past. Now the car won't make a hard stop from 60 without fading at the end. I made enough hard stops from 60 to cause smoke to pour out from the front brakes.
When I power bleed the brakes, that is with one person pumping and one cracking the bleed valve, I got air into the LR wheel cylinder. I would let it gravity bleed until all the air was gone, then the first step on the brake would only push liquid, no air, close the bleeder and it would take 3 or 4 pumps to get the brake pedal back up, then when cracking the bleeder with foot on brake, a lot of air would come out. So I replaced the wheel cylinder. BTW, whether power bleeding or gravity bleeding, I use a one man bleeder at each wheel with the tube going to the collection cup that is higher than the caliper or wheel cylinder so no air is sucked back into the system.
Now when bleeding the LF and RR wheels, the pedal will come back immediately. When I do the RF and LR, it takes 3 - 4 pumps to get the pedal back. It looks like the adapter fitting that the rebuilder put on the front cylinder of the master cylinder is sucking air around the threads.
I'm going to pull the front adapter off tomorrow and put some teflon tape around it and see if I can make it stop sucking air. If that doesn't work, I'll order a new master cylinder.
BTW, the booster is matched to the master cylinder as far as I can tell. I used caliper to measure it, I don't have that special tool and can't find where to get one. Might check it with some modeling clay tomorrow. The booster passes the check in the FSM.
I've been doing my own brakes, and a few for friends for 40 years, this is the first one to stump me.
I checked the rotors on the car, no run-out. Took them off and went to O'Rielly's to put them on the lathe to check again, still no run-out. Took a tiny bit off each surface to rough them up, these are only a couple months old and only have a couple thousand miles on them. Still 10.8 mm thick.
Took the autozone ceramic pads out, they were cracked, and took them back and got Duralast semi-metalics. I've had good luck with them in the past. Now the car won't make a hard stop from 60 without fading at the end. I made enough hard stops from 60 to cause smoke to pour out from the front brakes.
When I power bleed the brakes, that is with one person pumping and one cracking the bleed valve, I got air into the LR wheel cylinder. I would let it gravity bleed until all the air was gone, then the first step on the brake would only push liquid, no air, close the bleeder and it would take 3 or 4 pumps to get the brake pedal back up, then when cracking the bleeder with foot on brake, a lot of air would come out. So I replaced the wheel cylinder. BTW, whether power bleeding or gravity bleeding, I use a one man bleeder at each wheel with the tube going to the collection cup that is higher than the caliper or wheel cylinder so no air is sucked back into the system.
Now when bleeding the LF and RR wheels, the pedal will come back immediately. When I do the RF and LR, it takes 3 - 4 pumps to get the pedal back. It looks like the adapter fitting that the rebuilder put on the front cylinder of the master cylinder is sucking air around the threads.
I'm going to pull the front adapter off tomorrow and put some teflon tape around it and see if I can make it stop sucking air. If that doesn't work, I'll order a new master cylinder.
BTW, the booster is matched to the master cylinder as far as I can tell. I used caliper to measure it, I don't have that special tool and can't find where to get one. Might check it with some modeling clay tomorrow. The booster passes the check in the FSM.
I've been doing my own brakes, and a few for friends for 40 years, this is the first one to stump me.
I had to use a vacuum bleeder to bleed mine. If you have any loose connxs...you have to see some fluid leakage under pressure?
I don't usually have a reason to do a lot of panic braking...takes too damned long to get up to speed anyway!
I use the Advance Gold pads up front and Chinese rotors...right now have no pull...no drag....
Exactly how many panic stops are you talking about? Could be mine would fade after 4 or 5 in a row.....
I don't usually have a reason to do a lot of panic braking...takes too damned long to get up to speed anyway!
I use the Advance Gold pads up front and Chinese rotors...right now have no pull...no drag....
Exactly how many panic stops are you talking about? Could be mine would fade after 4 or 5 in a row.....
Give a boy a gun-give a biatch a cell phone-and pretty soon you almost got yourself a police state.
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
If you lived in Tennessee, well thats another story. It fades out on the first stop, not even a panic stop. There are no leaks and the rubber hoses do not swell.
I bought a mityvac, that didn't work very well. If there is any looseness around the bleeders and it sucks air from around the threads. It worked on one caliper, the old one, but none of the others. The bleeders were all too loose.
The reason I keep going after the master cylinder is that if you hold pressure on the brake pedal, it slowly goes down to the floor. It takes a minute or two, but when a system does this and there are either leaks or the master cylinder is bad. There are no "wet spot" around any fittings or at the calipers or wheel cylinders. The quality of the Autozone remans is visibly horrible. One I got last weekend had boogered threads for the fittings, one was an obvious return, full of fluid, one had missing seals (actually all of them had at least one seal or gasket missing, even the one I'm using now).
I bought a mityvac, that didn't work very well. If there is any looseness around the bleeders and it sucks air from around the threads. It worked on one caliper, the old one, but none of the others. The bleeders were all too loose.
The reason I keep going after the master cylinder is that if you hold pressure on the brake pedal, it slowly goes down to the floor. It takes a minute or two, but when a system does this and there are either leaks or the master cylinder is bad. There are no "wet spot" around any fittings or at the calipers or wheel cylinders. The quality of the Autozone remans is visibly horrible. One I got last weekend had boogered threads for the fittings, one was an obvious return, full of fluid, one had missing seals (actually all of them had at least one seal or gasket missing, even the one I'm using now).
I have the same problem using vac bleeding, but now use a thick layer of synthetic brake grease on the bleeder threads (don't think any grease will get into the hydraulics this way...either vac or pressure)....this pretty much seals them. Just did another vehicle and it worked OK despite some air leaks around the threads. Takes quite a bit of fluid in the jar to get into the fresh stuff for sure.
I generally have a choice of AZ...Advance...NAPA...and online sources. I usually use AZ as a local backup only...cause they sometimes have something in stock...otherwise avoid them....poor quality...*sshole heaven. Advance has better quality...so does NAPA. NAPA ships fairly quick here.
What you are seeing sounds about like what I had when I did the MC...then had to use vac in the right order, but it worked.
Can't really understand the fading thing...doesn't seem related to the bleeding issue....unless 2 of the brakes aren't really applying much pressure?
I know these Japanese MCs need to be bench bled...or they never get to working right...then the problem getting the air out using regular bleeding.
I generally have a choice of AZ...Advance...NAPA...and online sources. I usually use AZ as a local backup only...cause they sometimes have something in stock...otherwise avoid them....poor quality...*sshole heaven. Advance has better quality...so does NAPA. NAPA ships fairly quick here.
What you are seeing sounds about like what I had when I did the MC...then had to use vac in the right order, but it worked.
Can't really understand the fading thing...doesn't seem related to the bleeding issue....unless 2 of the brakes aren't really applying much pressure?
I know these Japanese MCs need to be bench bled...or they never get to working right...then the problem getting the air out using regular bleeding.
Give a boy a gun-give a biatch a cell phone-and pretty soon you almost got yourself a police state.
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
I do bench bleed the MC's. This one that I have now was a real b itch to bleed. It took a long time to get the air out.
I think what's happening is that these MC have been rebuilt so many times that the bores are just worn out and the internal seals are letting fluid pass from one chamber to the other. I ordered a new Wagner from RockAuto last night. Its hard to tell from pictures but the Wagner just looked the best. I was considering the Raybestoes PG with a 1" bore but one of the fittings was a 12x1 instead of a 10x1.
I do use AutoZone a lot, many parts on this car are from them with the lifetime warrantee. This is the first time I've had issues with their quality, but the reman MC's they have here are really bad. Right out of the box, they have visible defects. But as long as this car lasts, AZ will be losing money on it.
I would have gotten the shocks and struts from them but they only carry Gabriel. I have been so disappointed with that brand lately that it will be a long time before I use them again. Of course I used to feel the same way about Champion spark plugs, but I tried a set recently and their quality has greatly improved, I think they are right up there with NGK and maybe better than Denso and Bosch. But a lot of people who gave up on them in the 70's when their quality had gone down the tubes still don't believe me, I almost couldn't believe it myself.
I think what's happening is that these MC have been rebuilt so many times that the bores are just worn out and the internal seals are letting fluid pass from one chamber to the other. I ordered a new Wagner from RockAuto last night. Its hard to tell from pictures but the Wagner just looked the best. I was considering the Raybestoes PG with a 1" bore but one of the fittings was a 12x1 instead of a 10x1.
I do use AutoZone a lot, many parts on this car are from them with the lifetime warrantee. This is the first time I've had issues with their quality, but the reman MC's they have here are really bad. Right out of the box, they have visible defects. But as long as this car lasts, AZ will be losing money on it.
I would have gotten the shocks and struts from them but they only carry Gabriel. I have been so disappointed with that brand lately that it will be a long time before I use them again. Of course I used to feel the same way about Champion spark plugs, but I tried a set recently and their quality has greatly improved, I think they are right up there with NGK and maybe better than Denso and Bosch. But a lot of people who gave up on them in the 70's when their quality had gone down the tubes still don't believe me, I almost couldn't believe it myself.
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splatterdog
- Highest Ranking Member
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:26 am
- Location: Minnesota, USA
If you shop the zone. I would spend the extra 5 or 6 bucks for the Carbon Metalics from Performance Friction over the Duralast golds. Both my cars have nearly identical condition brakes except for one has the golds and one the carbon mets. Both with the "better" Chinese rotors. One of their claims is a fimer pedal and I'm convinced. Better stopping too by my observations.
I've used these on several different cars and trucks this summer and so far everybody is happy. For now they are my standard pad choice. Zone's around me are well stocked with them too.
I've used these on several different cars and trucks this summer and so far everybody is happy. For now they are my standard pad choice. Zone's around me are well stocked with them too.
Do you get decent shipping rates from RockAuto? I complained about their shipping once and got a reduction...but most times I bother to check...shipping is way out there.keith wrote: I ordered a new Wagner from RockAuto last night. Its hard to tell from pictures but the Wagner just looked the best. I was considering the Raybestoes PG with a 1" bore but one of the fittings was a 12x1 instead of a 10x1.
Be real nice if these parts places would get the pics right on their websites...many times no useful description and pic is not correct.
Give a boy a gun-give a biatch a cell phone-and pretty soon you almost got yourself a police state.
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
I've used the Carbon Metallics from Performance Friction, I thought they did a good job at stopping the car, in fact they were the pads that were on it when I could do 60 - 0 in about 130'. The road in front of my house has a good rough surface so stops are quicker than on a track where the asphalt is newer and has more oil in it. Anyway, I did think those pads felt "soft" even though they worked.
Anyway, it was after putting those pads on that the brakes began to deteriorate. I blamed it on the pads and switched to ceramics. That didn't work either so I went back to the last pads that gave a good hard feeling and stopped good, the Duralast.
I put EBC pads and rotors on my Saturn. The EBC pads are carbon metallic type pads and they feel soft too, but they work good too.
Regular shipping is $10 and change, yeah thats high. Obviously the shipping department is a profit center for them. But, when comparing Cardone or Beck-Arnley with other places the offer free shipping, the total comes out about the same.
Anyway, it was after putting those pads on that the brakes began to deteriorate. I blamed it on the pads and switched to ceramics. That didn't work either so I went back to the last pads that gave a good hard feeling and stopped good, the Duralast.
I put EBC pads and rotors on my Saturn. The EBC pads are carbon metallic type pads and they feel soft too, but they work good too.
Regular shipping is $10 and change, yeah thats high. Obviously the shipping department is a profit center for them. But, when comparing Cardone or Beck-Arnley with other places the offer free shipping, the total comes out about the same.
My Semi-Met's from Advance (Wearever Gold) have done me very well. They still have 1/2-2/3 their life even after I've turned my rotors completely dark.
Mine fade, but keep in mind I'm usually going downhill, and anymore my rotors are crap.
Bendix makes good brakes.
I used a Checker something or another reman in my car (lifetime) and its not as tight as I'd hope for, but it does work nicely. My ss' 81 Tercel has a CarQuest reman (God-aweful expensive) and its a little bit soft.
Mine fade, but keep in mind I'm usually going downhill, and anymore my rotors are crap.
Bendix makes good brakes.
I used a Checker something or another reman in my car (lifetime) and its not as tight as I'd hope for, but it does work nicely. My ss' 81 Tercel has a CarQuest reman (God-aweful expensive) and its a little bit soft.
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed
RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed
1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed
1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed
1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed
1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
Well I went to AZ for a hardware kit, didn't really feel I needed it or it would help, but no stone unturned and all that stuff. Got home and opened it, it had a bunch of useless stuff (makes the kit compatible with a lot of other cars) but the 8 clip I needed were all the same side. Like 8 lefts and no rights instead of 4 each. 20 mile back to the store, they didn't have another kit but they called another store to confirm the kit they had in stock had 4 ea. Another 15 miles to that store and then about 25 to home. I had words with the manager.
While I had the caliper off on the pass side, I thought I'd do a back flush (my term). Thats where I pump out the caliper piston, let any air that might be in the line rise to the top of the line, then squeeze the caliper back to position. Guess what, the caliper would not pump out. It did with the original MC before it started leaking, back when the brakes worked fairly good. This caliper is powered by the front chamber of the MC, the one that I had trouble getting to bleed on the bench.
While I had the caliper off on the pass side, I thought I'd do a back flush (my term). Thats where I pump out the caliper piston, let any air that might be in the line rise to the top of the line, then squeeze the caliper back to position. Guess what, the caliper would not pump out. It did with the original MC before it started leaking, back when the brakes worked fairly good. This caliper is powered by the front chamber of the MC, the one that I had trouble getting to bleed on the bench.
My take on the parts issue is the LABOR involved. Sort of a bummer to have to do something 2xs due to poor quality parts.
Most parts I've put on cars in the last 10 yrs have lasted OK...exceptions being a Terc volt regulator...1st new part was defective...next lasted only 3 yrs...while the OEM part lasted at least 15 yrs.
The other is the cost of gas to go get a part or the shipping costs.
If you pay attention to the time and gas money wasted chasing down parts...it adds up.
If I can wait and there isn't a core to deal with...online can be the way to go.
Easiest would be to buy a car that doesn't need parts...I see those at the car dealerships.
Most parts I've put on cars in the last 10 yrs have lasted OK...exceptions being a Terc volt regulator...1st new part was defective...next lasted only 3 yrs...while the OEM part lasted at least 15 yrs.
The other is the cost of gas to go get a part or the shipping costs.
If you pay attention to the time and gas money wasted chasing down parts...it adds up.
If I can wait and there isn't a core to deal with...online can be the way to go.
Easiest would be to buy a car that doesn't need parts...I see those at the car dealerships.
Give a boy a gun-give a biatch a cell phone-and pretty soon you almost got yourself a police state.
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
RockAuto called, they don't have the Wagner MC, its been discontinued. They want to switch me to a Dorman. Never heard of them. I asked for a Beck Arnley but they think it won't fit so I have to call them again tomorrow. They have good prices but they have no information about the individual parts other than a picture.
Well I guess its time to try a new (reman) booster. The new master cylinder bench bleed as it should, then bleeding all the other wheels went smoothly, Pressure at each wheel came back immediately, unlike the the other MC's. But the road test wasn't any better. I did get it to stop in 150' from 60 mph, but I couldn't get the brakes to lock even the slightest.