Oil Pan gasket seal change

[brianp]

So, recently my terc has been leaking oil like crazy (at the height, it was 1/2 qt a day, now it is 1/4 qt a day or less.). It seemed to be coming from the lower engine, so I took it in to my mechanic for him to look at it. he cleaned the engine off, and ran it for a while on the lift. He says it is leaking from the oil pan seal. He doesn't think that he will be able to get a good result by trying to wiggle the oil pan out of the bottom of the engine and suspension, and says it would be best to pull the engine, and replace the oil pan and front and rear seals. It would cost $600. Now, it is probably worth that much, but I could probably find another tercel for that price just the same, so I don't think I'll have him do it.

The question is, have you guys had good results pulling the oil pan off the bottom, and what is the best way to do that? The tercel manual says to un bolt the stabilizer bar to access the oil pan. I assume I'd need to put the car on jacks too, to have access to it.

Any tips you'd have would be great, I'd really hate to have to put this car to pasture just because it leaks oil too much.

[keith]

First, the pan is a real pain in the u no wat. The bolt between the differential and the pan is almost impossible. And worse than that, the pan gasket is probably not the problem.

The likeliest source of the leak is the front main seal, they have a history. They leak oil all around the pan gasket so it looks like its the pan gasket. There are two ways to replace this, the FSM way and the easier way. According to the FSM, you have to remove the oil pump. I found that you can just hook the seal and pull it out. It's not only easier to remove, it's easier to put the new one in with the oil pump in place.

You do have to pull the front covers, water pump, power steering pump, alternator, timing belt and crankshaft gear, but all that is easier than that one pan bolt in the middle between the differential and the oil pan.

[Mac]

oil pan seals are the biggest joke going, from the factory 90% of manufacturers use the silicone gasket goop, including Toyota on the 3A-C.

I agree with Keith that it probably isn't the oil pan gasket, but say if it is, clean the area really well with some brake clean (or carb clean, that stuff is hella good at cleaning off old oil) and apply a big glob of silicone on the source of the leak, it should last a couple months at worst.

If you just replaced the seal it might not even seal again, the old one has probably cut a groove into the shaft. in which case you might need to use a speedi sleeve to make it seal again.

http://www.acorn-ind.co.uk/products/prspeedi.htm

[neonsport]

My Tercel used to leave a puddle directly under the front pulley every time I drove it any distance. Since it was time to replace the timing belt anyway, I did the front main seal at the same time. As far as replacing seals go, it was probably the easiest I've ever done. Almost 100k miles later, it's still not leaking. I'll go ahead and replace it again when I do the timing belt later this year.

[brianp]

well, the mechanic says the front seal looks fine to him, so I dunno.

Fun.

[keith]

Your mechanic cannot even see the seal. It's behind the crank timing gear, you have to pull the timing belt and water pump to get that out. BTW, I erred when I said that you have to pull the PS pump, you only have to remove the belt.

Clean the area at the base of the timing belt cover and top of the oil pan lip in that area. Then you will be able to see the trace of the oil leak. One way to make it show up fast is to clean the area with solvent, spray with carb cleaner or brake cleaner. When it dries, then spread a little talcum powder over the area and run the engine for a few minutes. The oil trace will show up immediately.

I think you will find too that if you pull the lower timing belt cover, you will see oil puddles in the bottom of that area, but pulling that cover takes you more than half way to a seal change.

[splatterdog]

Water pump can stay put for the crank seal job. However, if you think it's still OE, I would add that to the list. This is the worst area of our engines for overlapping labor/preventive maintenance.

Might as well do the cam seal too. Together these 2 seals were the worst oil leaks on both my runners due to rock hard/cracked 20+ year old rubber. The seals pry out easily with a small sharp screwdriver inserted carefully around the outer edge.(DO NOT SCRATCH EITHER SHAFT). Unless you drive in very gritty areas the crank and cam surfaces are likely still ok.

Also to consider is the timing belt and tensioner pulley "while your at it".

[Typrus]

Hmmm... No leaks in my seals...?
I'd recommend an additive every now and again to soften up seals. Don't use that seal repair stuff, just a softener. Heck, I believe Valvoline High Mileage has said additive. It'll swell the rubber back up again and help the issue for a while longer.
BTW, if that front seal is leaking, wouldn't it be logical that it's flinging oil all over the timing belt? If that is the case, the belt really ought to be changed regardless. And remember to give the belt a little extra snug past the tensioner.

[splatterdog]

Surprisingly the runoff from both seals on my 84 barely touched the belt. It was due anyway. The cam seal did simulate a leaking head gasket at first glance. Almost everything from that one went over to the alternator side and ran back along the head gasket.

Of course the water pump shaft seal went a couple months later. New policy since is a new water pump on any older car during a timing belt job no matter who's car it is, unless they like paying me twice! It's happened...

[Mac]

for water pumps and timing belts, if your a DIY guy and labor costs you nothing, you can leave the pump. but if you pay someone else to do the work, might as well get it changed as the water pump costs far less than labor.

if you re-use a timing belt, make sure you reinstall it so its still moving in the same direction otherwise its likely to snap.

[Mac]

besides, a properly maintained engine should never need a new water pump, its old coolant that causes pumps to fail, hoses to burst and radiators to clog, etc.

[brianp]

Thanks guys, you've given me a bit to think about.

I just replaced the water pump a few months ago, so I'm good in that area. The timing belt looks to be in good condition too.

So I guess I'll be pulling the main pully off, and looking at the seal...

[ARCHINSTL]

Hmmm... No leaks in my seals...? ... Don't use that seal repair stuff, just a softener. Heck, I believe Valvoline High Mileage has said additive. It'll swell the rubber back up again and help the issue for a while longer

Here is a quote from a post I made in a thread (about the oil pressure warning switch flickering at low RPMs):
"In the meantime, I changed the oil to Valvoline 10W40 Maxlife "...for engines with over 75K miles..."
Now -
the pressure light stays out, even immediately after startup, at 6-700 rpm. Also, Goldie leaked literally only 10-20 drops a week at the front of the pan. That has now apparently totally stopped. The stuff is supposed to have sealants, so I guess it really does.
Anyone else have this experience with "high-mileage" oils?"
Still no leaks, after six weeks - guess it really works?
Tom M.

[keith]

Don't trust the look of a timing belt. If it has over 60k on it or is more than 6 years old, replace it. A timing belt is reinforced with Kevlar. Kevlar looks good right up until it catastrophically fails. At least with this car, if the belt breaks, it will only leave you stranded, it won't destroy the engine.

[neonsport]

The last timing belt I bought for my Tercel cost me $10. For that amount of money, there's no way I'd take the time to tear that far into the front of the engine without replacing it.

BTW, bad coolant is not the only reason a water pump ever goes bad. The water pump on my Tercel went bad a couple of years ago fron the bearing in. It had quite a bit of play in it well before the seal went bad.