Engine/Tranny swap for our LeMons car

Mr. Wiggles · Post by **Mr. Wiggles** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:40 am

If any of you followed the coverage of the 24 Hours of LeMons last weekend, you may have noticed a white and red Tercel 4WD cruising around the track. That was our car (team name: Tercelators). We were doing allright for the first part of the race, but then our 85 SR5 would only go into 2nd gear. Even then, we made it from 78th to 35th place, but early on day two our front diff destroyed itself and the transmission got stuck in EL. We ended up in 56th overall.

We're going back in October, though. To this effect, we need to do a tranny swap for sure, and probably a new motor (the current 3AC has 250,000 miles and has enough problems to make us worry a lot.) Current thoughts are swapping in the 4AF (or similiar) and transmission out of a Corolla, or swapping in a 22RE and transmission from a pickup.

We've got $455 to work with to be within the rules (rules can be found at 24hoursoflemons.com). Thoughts? Suggestions? Anything helpfull at all? I know that we won't be 4WD anymore, but that's not very usefull on the track anyway, and I really want to be able to go out there and blow away all of those fast German and Italian cars.

sdoan · Post by **sdoan** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:13 pm

Great site, lots of laughs.

The local Japanese wrecking yard said they were selling the 4wd trans for $285 (if I remember correctly). If you do replace the trans they changed final drive ratios from 83-84 to 85-87 so make sure you get the correct one.

Mine seems to handle better in 4wd than in front wd in the twisties, but I think it's pretty hard on it cause there's no center diff. Also 4wd has larger rear brakes than 2wd.

Got any pics of your racer?

Shawn

Mr. Wiggles · Post by **Mr. Wiggles** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:52 pm

Because the stock transmission nuked itself, I think we'd like to upgrade to something a bit tougher for the race.

I'll rehost some photos after a bit to a server friendly to this site.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:46 am

I think your best bet would be to swap in full corolla SR5 or GT-S (RWD)running gear into the car, the 22R tranny is probaby going to be pretty difficult to swap in (harder than the corolla tranny anyways)

if you wanted to keep the 4wd, the truck tranny won't work because it uses a transfer case and a axle going to a solid front diff.

lastly, Shogun has been racing hard with his tercel for a couple years now without any tranny problems, your tranny was probably on its last legs anyways. the most cost-conscious thing to do would be find a tranny in good shape, put it in your tercel and fill it with Redline 75-90NS. and you should be good to go.

as for the engine, whats your concern? the 3A-C is pretty bullet proof, my old one wen't to 8000RPM with 350,000KM and kept on kicking. (untill i replaced it with a mint 4A-C) let us know how it turns out!

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:47 am

Tell us what the engine problems are. They might not be all that bad.

I'll always advocate Schaeffer's lubricants. I've seen nightmares with RedLine personally, but to each their own.

I'd imagine your tranny was low on lube. That tends to eat them up like that.

I've gone almost 120mph, downhill, in windy mountain roads with my Terc. If she's still alive and ticking after 40k miles of that abuse from me, I'd imagine you just had a weak tranny. (Mine has 212 on the body and 219 or so on the engine)

I was wondering if anyone would throw a Terc into that race.

Mr. Wiggles · Post by **Mr. Wiggles** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:40 pm

Engine problems are as follows:

Loosing about 1 quart of oil every 100 miles.
Several PCV valves are located somewhere in the crankcase cover.
Serpentine belt is eating through the timing cover.
Won't idle.
Had 250,000 miles before we ever got to it.
But mostly, it's just so anemic. Even after pulling off the exhaust, power steering, A/C, and all the emissions stuff it's still just too slow, and doesn't seem to have the torque we need for pulling out of hard corners. The real key to the race is durability and keeping the car on the track as long as possible, but speed is a factor. Considering some of the cars at this last race (GTIs, Celica GTs, a Maserati Bi-Turbo, Miatas, retired Spec-Neons, etc.), we need to pull every last horsepower out of the motor that we can. Realistically, I just can't see the 3A motor putting out more than the 65hp it had when it was brand new.

Here's a photo on the track:

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:17 pm

if your using that much oil, blowby is probably your bigest problem.

I managed to free my piston rings in my tercel by running ATF through the crankcase for 5 min followed by a little drive. that basically took out all the carbon build up in the crankcase, including the carbon that was keeping the rings from seating properly.

spray some carb cleaner into the carb too when its running, that usually helps a decrepit old carb. smetimes that crap you pour into the intake to take carbon out of the engine helps too...

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:26 am

Heck, more than 5 mins might nt hurt. And get yourself a load of cheap oil and a cheap oil filter as well and run some more ATF and/or SeaFoam in the crank. 20 miles never seems to hurt mine. Knocks all kinds of junk loose. Then more mediocre oil to see if its slowed the consumption down. If not...

Drop in a good-condition 4AC and find a Weber you can bolt up to it. Weber 32/36 DGV. They sell kits to put them on, the adapter and such aren't too much and neither is a used Weber. Would help a lot.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:51 am

won't hurt, but i've done it for longer without any extra benefit.

takza · Post by **takza** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:56 am

3 donuts per coil and my Terc could win that race.....

If you were running in 4wd on a dry track...that might be what crapped out the trans...puts a lot of torque stress on the whole shebang. Or low oil.

Not sure you understand this engine. Only has one PCV valve and if it is stuck...might be part of the problem. Could be the t belt has jumped some teeth? Is the vac advance working?

If you want to stick with a T4WD...I'd say look for another one and use this one for parts....

keith · Post by **keith** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:08 am

How does a Maserati make the $500 cut?

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:26 am

Nono... takza, he means several have broken off inside and are sitting in that little compartment below the valve. If I'm getting it right.

Mr. Wiggles · Post by **Mr. Wiggles** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:40 am

Yes, several PCV valves have broken off and fallen inside the cover. There's a little washer thingie on the back end of it that keeps dissapearing.

We were running the track in just front wheel drive.

About the motor - even if we got the engine back up to a brand new from the factory state, I'm not sure how we'd do for speed. We did just fine during the race in the twisty bits, but in the high banked corners we just couldn't pull hard enough. Same thing for exiting 45 degree turns and the like.

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:48 pm

A 4AC would be a direct drop-in, the tranny could handle it, and you'd pick up HP and Torque.
3AC- 62HP 74ft/lb or so (going off my head, I dunno where my Chiltons went)
4AC- 72 HP and 80-summat torque. Assuming I remember right.
Hell, lets go check Wiki.

62@4800 75@2800
70-90@4800 85@2800

So 8-28HP and 10 ft/lb to be picked up. Thats considerable, when you think about the original power.

Throw on a Paradise Racing Power Pack and see even more. And your money go down the drain.

Either way...

Converting to EFI would be interesting. Take a lot of effort. If you're willing to do it, go for it. It'd be fun to see a 4AFE in a Terc. Expect a different powerband though.
105HP@5800
101ft/lb@4800

I doubt it has as much torque as the 3AC down low. Though at some point it does get higher.
Just to let you know, 100ft/lb is pretty much the upper ceiling of safety for our trannies.

If you do a full AE86 swap-out, for one, take picture (LOTS) and document it for us PLEASE. It'd be very helpful.
But if you did, expect better braking, better control (LSD if you get lucky with the rear axle) and lots of power.
4AGE- 115-140HP depending on generation of 16-valve @6600-7200
97-110ft/lb torque @ 4800RPM

Some quick thoughts-
The engine sits pretty tall in the Terc due to the front diff going under the engine. This makes the angle of the tranny not natural to a RWD spec.
-----\
|
-------------------

More or less. The upper line being the input shaft.
So, to convert to RWD, one must find a way to seat the engine lower in the body. Also how to convert the front suspension to have no CV's. Dunno hwo hard that'd be, maybe as simple as taking the outer cup of the outer CV and leaving it bolted in (supports the front wheel bearings)

At any rate, you'll need to sort out that driveline geometry goodness.

Let us know.

takza · Post by **takza** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:00 am

Mr. Wiggles wrote:Yes, several PCV valves have broken off and fallen inside the cover. There's a little washer thingie on the back end of it that keeps dissapearing.

We were running the track in just front wheel drive.

About the motor - even if we got the engine back up to a brand new from the factory state, I'm not sure how we'd do for speed.

* take the valve cover off and get the grommet chunks out of there? They are blocking oil return passages to the sump causing oil use?

* remove the t belt cover and leave it off... Check to see if your valve timing is right.

* I'm probably getting 75 HP out of my 3AC with advanced ignit timing.