Timing belt replacement nightmare

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:25 pm

I went to Sears and I saw their tool selection; it's quite extensive. The torque wrenches are quite pricey. I didn't know that they would replace it free, so I didn't take the ratchet with me. I'll be back Saturday with it.

I did learn my lesson about breaker bars and ratcheting dealies, thanks for pointing that out. I'm still in the learning process... I'm just a neophyte to this "wrenching world."

Generally, how long should the breaker bar be for most purposes?

Well, the towel thing explains why it didn't do anything to the nut. It did seem like it was dampening the force. I didn't think about jamming it anywhere else.

I've given up on it, I don't want to break something else... the mechanic should be able to help me loosen the nut on Saturday with the special tool.

I wonder how you break a breaker bar? Any suggestions on how to hold the crank pulley when torquing the nut?

keith · Post by **keith** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:12 pm

I broke a 16" breaker bar doing something, I don't remember what now, but I think I had a cheater on it, about a 4' pipe. I got it replaced (free at AutoZone) and bought a 24" breaker bar at the same time for whatever it was that I was doing. The 24" is a lot stronger, but that was the only time I used it. I always grab the 16", but if I ever feel the need for a cheater, I'll use the 24" instead.

I find that Craftsman tools are excellent for the money, but there are a lot of low use tools for which I (and probably you too) don't need the Craftsman quality. For those low use tools and second set tools (second set of wrenches for example), consider less expensive tools like those at Walmart or AutoZone. I even get really cheap, basic tools for carrying around in the vehicles for emergency roadside repairs. 6in1 screwdrivers are great for this. You don't need a lot of tools in the car, your not going to do anything serious on the side of the road.

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:04 am

Wedging the pipe attached to whatever you use against the ground also works. How I did it. Then you don't need to worry about a towel.

I used a wratchet to bust mine. But I used a 1/2" bit one. Cnsiderably tougher than a 3/8". I abue my Craftsman tools. They have yet to break. But when they do, I'll go dancing into Sears for the new one.

I struggled with it too. Just keep at it. It'll come eventually.

Gasoline Fumes · Post by **Gasoline Fumes** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:03 am

keith wrote:if you had a Honda, you could not do a timing belt at home. It requires very specialized tools.

Which Hondas? I've done timing belts on quite a few Civics and an Accord. The only thing making it more difficult than a 3A-C is that the engine mount needs to be unbolted. But I don't consider a scissor jack and a block of wood to be specialized tools.

keith · Post by **keith** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

97 Accord. The engine rotates backwards so the breaker bar jammed into the swaybar doesn't work. The crank pulley bolt is torqued to 186 ft/lbs, which is higher that your typical 1/2" torque wrench will go to. I could not break the pulley bolt loose with a brand new Snap On 1/2" drive impact wrench.

I have since found a tool that costs almost $100 that is designed to do this job. The Honda does have a 50 mm hex imprint in the front pulley that this tool fits into to hold it still while you go at the bolt with a big breaker bar. It appears to have an extension for the torque wrench to multiply the torque to the correct value so that you can use a regular torque wrench on it.

BTW I did do a timing belt on an 84 Honda Civic Wagon one, it wasn't difficult, but that was a different engine back then.

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:03 pm

I just now figured out that I can use a chain wrench to hold the crank pulley. However, a new one is going to cost me $40, which I don't have. I'll figure out a way to hold it while I torque the pulley, I hope.

I believe one of my neighbors has a '97 Accord. keith, what is the torque rating on your Snap On impact wrench? I've seen some that are rated for 600 lb/ft of torque, but I think these are the air ones, not sure though.

I have a basic set of metric Craftsman tools that my dad bought on sale years ago. I should get a second set of cheaper tools to carry around in the car and a set of belts.

Hopefully tomorrow I will have the car back together and running.

keith · Post by **keith** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:09 pm

Don't use a chain wrench, it will damage the crank pulley. Instead, go to AutoZone and get the strap type oil filter wrench. It consists or a nylon canvas strap about 2" wide on a six inch long 1/2" square tube. The square tube can accommodate a 3/8" drive ratchet or breaker bar, but I prefer to hold it with a pipe wrench. I use this to torque the bolt back in place, I still prefer the starter and breaker bar for removing it.

BTW, this strap wrench only costs about $7. Also if you have a Costco membership, they have a good (not great, but good) set of ratchet wrenches in metric for $20. Unfortunately it doesn't have a 17 mm in it. It seems that only the AutoZone set has a 17 mm ($79.95), even Craftsman and NAPA don't include that size in their sets. Snap On does, but the set is around $180 (ouch).

Of course, there is Harbor Freight Tools in Camarillo. The tools are cheap but they are OK for secondary or casual use, and for the trunk. They have a web site and some outlets.

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:37 pm

Two mechanics told me to use a chain wrench, so much for their expertise...

I'm glad I can count on sage advice here, and I mean it, not to sound witty or anything...

What is a pipe wrench? I think I've seen those strap-type oil filter wrenches at Pep Boys. My local AutoZone is so tiny I couldn't find radiator flush cleaner stuff. I've been to other ones which have a much bigger selection, I guess it just depends where I go. However, they do have a good sale in which they are selling SeaFoam for $5.99 right now. Maybe I'll buy a can or two. I convinced my friend to buy a can to try it on his Cadillac Seville. I poured some down the carburetor throat before I took my car apart.

Pep Boys has a coupon sale for Valvoline oil for $1.49 a quart. But Castrol GTX oil is at $2.09 per quart with coupon. Is Castrol is better than Valvoline? Currently, I bought some Wal-Mart's SuperTech 10W-30 oil, but I want to put something better in the next 800-1000 miles. Maybe less, the oil came out very dark... The SuperTech oil filters are very cheap.

In reality, what's the difference between quality tools are cheap ones? Is it just breakage or more skinned knuckles? I know the comfort and egronomics are better with quality tools, I discovered this when I borrowed some cheap tools to replace the fuel pump. Not only is the feel much better, but I thought I was going to break the ratcheting part of the ratchet when I really started heaving on it, and these weren't even mine.

Actually, the basic Craftsman metric set which my dad bought came with the 17mm socket. It's very basic, just the ratchet, a small extension, a 1/4" adapter, and the sockets all the way to 17mm (I can't remember where it starts) all for the low price of $30-35 on sale. I had to buy two 19mm sockets. It doesn't have any actual wrenches.

I noticed that this is starting to become a discussion of tools...lol!

Harbor Freight Camarillo is over 50 miles away from where I am. Closer to me are Pasadena and Lakewood Harbor Freight stores. You said that their gear pullers were okay to use for when replacing the crank oil seal.

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:47 pm

Cheap tools also have much much looser tolerances. You will round off many more bolts, nuts, allen heads-sets, etc with a cheap tool versus a Mac or SnapOn. Strength is a factor as well.

gatemaster · Post by **gatemaster** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:10 pm

What I do is screw 2 grade 8 ( or similar) bolts into 2 of the 4 holes that hold on the extra pulley to the balancer. I then put the long tire iron from my S10 between the bolts and turn the pully until the tire iron wedges against something solid (can't remember what). Just make sure the tire iron stays close to the pulley so the bolts don't bend. You could use washers to help with that. then I use a half inch breaker bar on the center bolt.

takza · Post by **takza** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:23 am

I repeat:

* you could remove the starter and put a medium sized c-clamp on the flywheel thru the opening. You don't really remove it...just the bolts and let it hang on a coat hanger wire...batt negative cable OFF.

keith · Post by **keith** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:07 am

If you have some inner tube rubber to go between the chain wrench and the pulley, you could use the chain wrench, but without that rubber, the chain will eat into the pulley, and it will eat up belts after that.

If you compare a cheap wrench or socket to a quality one, you will see differences like how sharp the machining is on the working part of the quality tool to the not so sharp and smooth machining of the poor quality tools. In fact, on some cheap wrenches, you can see that the box end or open ends are "net cast", that is no machining at all, where the good tools are machined to shape. But as a "holding" wrench, that is a wrench that you would use to hold the bolt while using the good wrench to turn the nut, they are ok. They also work for that second set you carry in the car. You won't have lost as much if someone breaks into your car and steals them.

The kinds of things I get from Harbor Freight are things like my spring compressors. Its getting so that some of the auto parts stores are matching or beating their prices though. I got my cherry picker (engine lift) from Advance for about $130, it was $160 at Harbor Freight and $220 at AutoZone. I got an engine stand at Advance to the same price at Advance as Harbor Freight, and since Advance is on my way home from work and Harbor Freight is 30 miles the other way, it was a no brainer.

The Stanley tools at Walmart are pretty good quality and very reasonably priced, but selection is limited. Mainly just sockets, wrenches and screwdrivers.

gatemaster has a good idea, but I'd recommend a length of 1/2" or wider 10 or 7 gauge steel with two holes drilled spaced by the distance between two adjacent holes on the pulley. Don't use the opposing holes, then you'd cover the crank bolt. Then bolt the steel to the pulley and have at the bolt with a breaker bar.

You need to get a 16', 1/2" drive breaker bat and a fairly decent 1/2" drive socket set. I'd go to Walmart, Advance or AutoZone for that. It should cost you no more than $40 for all, maybe less. When's your birthday, graduation or A in Calculus? Maybe you dad would get it for you for one of the above.

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:11 am

Haha! The car's back together, but I'm still not happy. It has a new timing belt, tensioner, tensioner spring, radiator hoses, belts, and valve cover gasket, but now I have an even bigger problem. "Oh, for corn's sake!" I took a shortcut and didn't adjust the valves and now one of them is tapping very loud, it's so loud you can hear it at the end of the exhaust. I slipped a .007 in feeler guage in the 1st intake valve and it wouldn't go in. Then I slipped it in another intake valve and there was no drag. I suppose this is the one that's tapping. I didn't adjust them because I was pressed for time to get the car out of the driveway, it's a long story.

I bought a 24" breaker bar and the 1/2" 19mm socket. I just set it on the ground and turned the key and on the first bump it was free. The second time I bumped it, the engine already turned over. To hold the crank I put the car in 5th gear and stepped on the brakes and blocked the front wheels just in case, while someone torqued the crank bolt to 87 lb/ft. I discovered this after I bent the bolts for the puller I borrowed from AutoZone, so now I have to buy new ones before I return it.

takza, I did not mean to shun your suggestion, but I really did not think I would know how to do it properly or remove the starter without much effort.

I didn't get a chance to flush the cooling system, so meanwhile I just filled it with distilled water. Oh well, I'll guess I'll finish everything up in a few weeks when I have more time.

Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone!

Post by **ARCHINSTL** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:50 am

Heyyy! Way to go - your're learnin' !

Aren't you afraid of the cold weather in LA and no AF? After all, you have a cold snap of - what? + 49 at night?

Tom M.

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:05 pm

Thanks! I learned quite a bit alright. I noticed the timing belt guide, which I installed new, is still making some noise occasionally while idling. I think it wiggles. At least that's what I think it is. It was making the same sound before the replacement.

Actually, when I took it apart on Tues. it was hot over here! Then Sat. & Sun. it seemed as if it were going to rain. But no, we don't have -49 degree weather at night, well, at least I don't think we do...

I'm still fighting qualm over some damage on the aluminum surface that was caused by prying on the valve cover. Luckily, it's at the edge of the surface towards the inside, just slightly roughened. I didn't pry up on it, my friend did, he was trying to get out of there ASAP, while I was telling him to calm down while I figured out why it wasn't coming loose. Oh well.

I went dancing into Sears, actually more like perambulating, and I got my replacement ratchet, no questions asked. I got the breaker bar at AutoZone.

Now that I was thinking about it, I think I tightened the A/C compressor belt a wee bit too much. The alternator is fine, about 1/2" of movement.

I had some trouble getting the valve cover aligned correctly and torquing the acorn nuts to 15 lb/ft. I had to do it twice. The tensioner bolt was hard to remove with a ratchet, just couldn't do it, so I pulled out the breaker bar and easily it came loose. It makes a big difference to have the tools.