Car wont start after head job

skullone · Post by **skullone** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:58 pm

Me and a friend (also a member here with his new tercel) replaced the head gasket on my 84, did a pretty complete and good job, except for one thing.
The car will no longer start. It cranks fine, we've verified spark, timing appears fine (we checked against the service manual), distributor and rotor are set properly.
Theres fuel delivery, spark, etc. Just will never catch.
I suspect bad fuel as a possible cause, but it only sat for 2 months, and it ran fine prior to that (except for head gasket issues).

Were out of things to try, everything looks good, all vaccums connected properly, fuel lines, etc.
What hints do people have to troubleshoot this?

Mickey_D · Post by **Mickey_D** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:35 pm

Are you 100% sure the distributor isn't 180 degrees out?

A timing light verifying ignition timing on an engine 180 out will still light up at TDC on the crank.

If that's not the case, pull a plug or two and squirt a little gas in the cylinder, put the plugs back in and turn it over. If it coughs, you know it's fuel related. If it doesn't even fire, you know it's ignition related.

skullone · Post by **skullone** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:15 pm

The service manual said at TDC, the rotor should be pointing at the top of the distributor cap.
Unless I read it wrong, could be

keith · Post by **keith** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:33 pm

skullone wrote:The service manual said at TDC, the rotor should be pointing at the top of the distributor cap.
Unless I read it wrong, could be

I don't think so. It should point about 45 degrees from the top, about the 10:30 position. There are two marks to line up on the distributor near the gear. They look like someone started to drill a hole and stopped right after getting started. You line the two marks up, set the engine to TDC on the #1 cylinder and then install the distributor. The rotor will move a little as the gears engage.

If you are in doubt about if the engine is TDC for #1 or #4, pull the top timing belt cover and make sure that you can see the mark on the head through the hole in the cam timing gear. That will be #1 at TDC.

Personally, I like to have the engine at 5 BTDC. It only throws the cam mark off a tiny bit, the mark is still visible in the hole (at an angle). Then I line up the reluctor with the ignitor so the timing is very close when I start it.

skullone · Post by **skullone** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:28 pm

Also, just wanted to say, to remove old head gasket material... there is no better tool than this:

http://tinyurl.com/3bz2kz

http://tinyurl.com/2olzrc

Post by **Petros** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:11 pm

Not likely gas only two months old will not allow it to start (I have run on gas several years old, runs bad, but still runs). Make sure you have gas at the carb. Might try starter fluid spray in the airfilter, if it starts you know it is not getting gas.

I would double check the cam timing and the distributor install. I can not tell you how many times I have gotten the distributor install wrong

Not only at 180 off, but also just a tooth or two (will start, but runs real bad). When you push the distributor in the rotor turn because of the gear helix, you have to estimate how much it will turn to get it in the right place when installed. I have done over 100 times, and I still mess this up sometimes.

You might also double check your spark plug wire install order (I onced mixed the number two and three wires after a rebuild, it actually started and ran).

good luck

Mickey_D · Post by **Mickey_D** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:18 pm

Skullone, please edit your post so that you are using the URL tags. Your super long links always make for extended pages which means I stop reading the topic and go onto the next.

skullone · Post by **skullone** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:06 am

I did use the URL tags, and it wont shorten it to a named title
oh well

we messed around with it tonight again, looked closely at the distributor timing, lined up those two "holes" with the indent, still nothing.
All we got was one backfire, and a short rumble. Nothing else the entire evening.
The back end stinks like fuel, so fuel is obviously getting in, and just pushed out. Plugs sparked fine when we checked for spark.

Really not sure what it could be.. just more doubts about the distributor timing. We dont have a timing light yet.

Are those notches on the distributor gear supposed to line up with anything else? the service guide and other people mention to just line the 2 nothces with the indent on the distributor, but nothing about lining it up with anything on the cam gear thing.
Really not sure where to procede, except to hire a shade tree mechanic to come look at it, but that could be $200+

Jts · Post by **Jts** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:43 am

until you can get a timing light on it and verify that you're around 10-15 degree before TDC, i'm still guessing your timing is off. Putting the distrib back in can be a giant pain. I also spent alot of time getting it right. The car will almost start and backfire with the distrib 180 degrees off. Or something like that. I remember seeing the timing mark where it should be but it was still off. Either way, get a timing light before you spent 200 bucks on a mechanic.

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:57 am

Guys. Um. Hello? There are 2 TDC events in a full engine cycle. If you set the TDC event at TDC EXHAUST stroke, you'll get backfiring out the exhaust and potentially intake as well, because the spark fires right after the intake valve pops open. Both valves are open in this event.

Solution? Take off your timing cover. Line up to TDC. MAKE SURE BOTH OF THE ROCKER ARMS OF THE #1 CYLINDER ARE LOOSE! NOT TIGHT! If they are loose, set the distributor up. If they are tight, turn the crank 360 degrees. A full cycle has 720 degrees guys, not just 360. We are 4-strokes, not 2-strokes. Check your rocker arms. When they are loose, set the distributor timing as per FSM. Line up the 2 marks Petros advised for, and try to get the dist centered in its forward-backward motion when you do it so you can play with both advance and retard.

Not saying thats the only solution, but from what I'm reading from you guys, its like you're saying just being at TDC will make it work. Not true. Theres a 50/50 chance that you're at the wrong TDC if you aren't watching your rocker arms.

If you've done this, I'll bite my lip, because even I feel a bit of toxicity coming out of me in this (sorry, I've had a hellish past few weeks) so sorry for that.

I hope that helps.

If anyone is confused, go to http://www.howstuffworks.com and look up 4-stroke cycle. You could also peruse Keveny's site.

tonythayer · Post by **tonythayer** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:56 am

skullone had his finger over the #1 spark plug hole, and I would turn the engine over until he felt suction. Then I would bring it in line with the mark on the block. I'm assuming that the next stage would be compression. Lined up the crank, cam, lined up the distributor against the mark on the gear with the distributor bolt centered to allow for adjustment, still no go. I'm going to try borrowing a timing light this weekend to see how off we are.

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:36 pm

With the sparker off, power stroke will suck too.

So the witness hole in the cam is pointing straight up and the key-way in the crank nose is pointing straight up?

A timing light would definitely help.

Carb hooked up right?

Here's a thought. Maybe a silly one. Did you guys plug the distributor back in? I've forgotten about that after compression tests before >.<

skullone · Post by **skullone** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:33 pm

yup, at first it wasnt, then a bit later we caught that.
when we get the timing light, hopefully itll shed some light on the whole situation
har har

keith · Post by **keith** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:38 pm

Not that I'm against timing lights, but I've never been off more that a degree or two using the method I listed earlier. You cannot go by the finger in the spark plug hole, you need to look at the cam gear and line it up and verify the timing mark is at TDC. If the timing mark is at TDC and the mark on the head is visible through the hole in the cam gear, you are TDC on #1. As Typrus noted, both rockers on #1 will be loose. You did set the valve lash didn't you?

One change, I double checked the FSM, you line up the protrusion on the housing with the gear's roll pin on the same side that has the drill mark, not with the drill mark itself. The when the gear on the distributor engages the gear on the cam, it will rotate in to the right position. Then back up the engine 5Ã‚Â° and line up the reluctor vane with the ignitor.

While you have the distributor out, check it for play in the shaft. It takes very little play before the distributor is useless. Also check to see if the carburetor is dumping gas. If its been sitting around for awhile, the needle and seat might be leaking, letting too much gas into the bowl and letting it overflow.

takza · Post by **takza** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:48 am

keith wrote:While you have the distributor out, check it for play in the shaft. It takes very little play before the distributor is useless.

I have 3 used dists and unfortunately they all have loose shafts...each about the same...the one in the car works OK. Has anyone tried replacing the bushing or whatever is in there?