My car didn't pass smog inspection - Help!

[tercel4wdrules]

I'm kind of frustrated right now, I just had the carb rebuilt today and we took it to the smog check station and the Tercel just straight-out failed. The fuel level in the sight glass is dead center, the tech guy at the carb shop told me to see it myself...

It failed the timing check "due to engine rpm being out of tolerance"... it was at about 1000 rpm when it should've been at 650 rpm for the 6spd MT w/o PS. So, I'll have to reset it to 650. Then it failed the visual inspection for the Thermostatic Air Cleaner because it was missing that flexible hose that runs from the air cleaner to the manifold.

When the car was on the dyno and the tech shifted into 3rd, he let the rpms drop almost to idle and then it lugged with some pinging to 25 mph, when he should of just left it in 2nd gear.

It has a new PCV valve, hose, and grommet. However, it still won't start when hot without touching the gas pedal. The rough idle is gone and it runs relatively smooth.

Here are the results:

Test: 15 mph

HC (PPM): Max (157) - Measured = 174
CO (%): Max (.93) - Measured = 1.25
NO (PPM): Max (1227) - Measured = 194

Result: FAIL

Test: 25 mph

HC (PPM): Max (132) - Measured = 114
CO (%): Max (.73) - Measured = 1.19
NO (PPM): Max (1057) - Measured = 89

Result: FAIL

The readings are significantly higher than the last time it was inspected in Jan. 2005...

I would like some suggestions on how to lower HC and CO to get this thing to pass. I have a set of wires and the cap & rotor which I still have to install. Do I need to replace the catalytic converter? I was thinking about the EGR, but that just reduces NOx... check the AS valve?

[Typrus]

Might be partly due to idle controller or whathaveyou. If its set to idle to high, or is because of another adjustment, then perhaps its a bit richer than it should be? Just kind of tossing that thought out, anyone else call me on it if I'm stupid.

Well, HC is just unburnt fuel. If your ignition is bad, then a replacement will help. If not, no point. Hard to tell.

CA emissions sucks. Yet everyone should learn from them. Damn you brown smog!

Replace the heater hose then. I don't have one either, but fortunately noone here cares.

Wait... He was lugging it when he should have been in 2nd? Did you call him on it?

Hows your timing? Within spec? That can have a significant effect if off.

What grade fuel you using? Use at least midgrade.

Is your air cleaner clean?

Any holes in your exhaust? They would normally call you on that, but its possible they missed it?

Hard to say if the kitty is bad. Was the engine at operating temp when they tested it? Cat has to heat up to work.

Your CO is a little messed up, but the HC isn't as bad as it could be.

Here's this. This was my test for the 84 right after I transplanted.
BTW, gassers don't have to pass a dyno test. Diesel's, those who have to take it anyway, do have to pass the dyno.

21-APR-2005
Limits-
HC PPM- 400
CO% - 1.50



Idle
HC PPM- 60
CO% - 0.10
CO2% - 12.20
RPM- 1246 (he cheated by clutching to get the program to start, then it read this)

2500
HC PPM- 15
CO% - 0.23
CO2% - 13.1
RPM- 2540

Visual Inspection
Catalytic Converter - PASS
Fuel Filler Restricter - PASS
Air Injection System - PASS
Oxygen Sensor - PASS
Check Engine Light - N/A

That was an ODO reading of 180,346. I'm now past 202k. My cat has since started falling apart and I've sprung several exhaust leaks. I want to pass Denver's emissions (stricter) once I get it all fixed up.

Hey! I just found a receipt saying that the Transaxle fluid was changed along with diff at 94,706 miles! Go Lisa Burden, previous owner extraordinaire! Holy crap... That was in 91! Not bad mileage accumulation for a California car!

Shes had maintenance done is Sacramento, Santa Barbara, National City, Goleta, Costa Mesa, San Francisco, Lampoc, (Topanga???), Canoga Park, and who knows where else. lol.

Sorry for the segway, was looking for CA Emissions receipts. Didn't find any.

[tercel4wdrules]

Might be partly due to idle controller or whathaveyou. If its set to idle to high, or is because of another adjustment, then perhaps its a bit richer than it should be? Just kind of tossing that thought out, anyone else call me on it if I'm stupid.

Well, HC is just unburnt fuel. If your ignition is bad, then a replacement will help. If not, no point. Hard to tell.

CA emissions sucks. Yet everyone should learn from them. Damn you brown smog!

Replace the heater hose then. I don't have one either, but fortunately noone here cares.

Wait... He was lugging it when he should have been in 2nd? Did you call him on it?

Hows your timing? Within spec? That can have a significant effect if off.

What grade fuel you using? Use at least midgrade.

Is your air cleaner clean?

Any holes in your exhaust? They would normally call you on that, but its possible they missed it?

Hard to say if the kitty is bad. Was the engine at operating temp when they tested it? Cat has to heat up to work.

Your CO is a little messed up, but the HC isn't as bad as it could be.

Interesting info... before we drove to the carb shop about 9 miles away we filled up with 4 gallons of 89 octane fuel. The tech guy at the carb shop I didn't quite understand with the timing, but he did check the timing and he said it was alright. Perhaps I should buy a $40 timing light and retard the timing to 3 BTDC? The air filter is not that clean, it's over 1 1/2 yrs old, the previous owner replaced it. I will replace it now. As for holes in the exhaust, I really don't know, but it doesn't really sound loud.

He lugged it for a few seconds in 3rd while it sped up from about 10-12 mph to 25 mph and no, I didn't call him on that. For the retest I will request that he leave it in 2nd. I'm thinking of a pretest at another location before returning to this smog station... the guy said he would charge a $45 diagnostic fee to tell us what's wrong.

When it was going to be placed on the dyno the temp guage was below the middle and then he left it running until I heard the fan come on and the temp rose to normal operating temp. Before arriving at the smog check station it was driven about 7-9 miles and then it sat for about 30 min. while we waited for the tech to come back from lunch, and during that time period it cooled off some.

I still have the timing belt and stuff waiting to be replaced as well, but I want to get over this smog rubbish before I take care of that. Thanks for the suggestions.

[takza]

Here are the results:

Test: 15 mph

HC (PPM): Max (157) - Measured = 174
CO (%): Max (.93) - Measured = 1.25
NO (PPM): Max (1227) - Measured = 194

Result: FAIL

Test: 25 mph

HC (PPM): Max (132) - Measured = 114
CO (%): Max (.73) - Measured = 1.19
NO (PPM): Max (1057) - Measured = 89

Result: FAIL

The readings are significantly higher than the last time it was inspected in Jan. 2005...

I would like some suggestions on how to lower HC and CO to get this thing to pass. I have a set of wires and the cap & rotor which I still have to install. Do I need to replace the catalytic converter? I was thinking about the EGR, but that just reduces NOx... check the AS valve?

I think you ought to put the wires/cap/rotor on it with some good plugs and MAYBE set the ignition timing forward around 3 degrees or so....looks like plenty of "room" as far as NO?

Get your hot air door going too...might have a vac leak?

Try 3 oz acetone?


+ check out the new post in the Repair guides area?

[keith]

Did you replace the spark plugs? If not, I'd suggest using Bosch +2 or +4 Platinum's. This engine seems to respond to them for some reason, haven't had this kind of response to them in any of my other cars. Also replace the air cleaner. That little hose to the exhaust shield is only a buck or two so get that too.

Don't mess with the timing. Last time I had a car checked in California (a long time ago) they checked for that.

Is the engine running at proper temp? The gauge should be a little less than half way up under normal conditions, at or just below the wavy lines of the temp symbol. You may also need a new O2 sensor. For this car, its relatively cheap and easy to replace. There is no check engine light to warn you that the O2 sensor isn't working, but there is a capped off, two pin plug used to check it. Use an analog volt meter on these two pins and the needle should sweep between 0 and 7 volts at least 8 times in 10 seconds.

The connector is located below the wiper motor, the engine must be warmed up and the engine running at 2500 rpm.

The O2 sensor is located at the base of the exhaust manifold, under the heat shield, facing forward. Just follow the wire(s) to it. You do not use a special O2 sensor socket on this model, just a 12 (or 14) mm socket. Be sure to coat the threads of the studs with some anti-sieze when re-installing.

[tercel4wdrules]

The spark plugs were replaced sometime in Jul. with the regular NGK plugs and they have about 100 miles on them, but I do understand they could be fouled. I can go ahead and try those Bosch +2, or +4 Platinum. It was at operating temp, actually it went slightly above the wavy lines when the radiator fan came on, and then afterwards it went back down around to the wavy lines.

I know where the O2 sensor is at, I saw it yesterday... thanks for telling me where it's at and how to test it. I don't have an analog multimeter, only a digital one. How would you test it with a digital one?

Here are the results of Jan. 2005 inspection for comparison:

Ignition timing: 3 BTDC

Here are the results:

Test: 15 mph

HC (PPM): Max (157) - Measured = 55
CO (%): Max (.93) - Measured = .21
NO (PPM): Max (1227) - Measured = 13

Result: PASS

Test: 25 mph

HC (PPM): Max (132) - Measured = 83
CO (%): Max (.73) - Measured = .14
NO (PPM): Max (1057) - Measured = 334

Result: PASS

Now that I see it, there's a huge difference. My question is what the hey happened? And to make things better it refused to start today right now. Great! Just something else that I needed to close the deal...

[tercel4wdrules]

Update: I figured out why it didn't want to start; it was the choke that was stuck open, so I slightly held the throttle open and closed it manually and then it started.

I have a question. How does one lower the idle? It is idling at 1200-1400 rpm and I was turning the idle screw counterclockwise and it would not go down. Was I supposed to turn it the other direction, clockwise? The MAS is plugged, so I'm thinking they put it there, perhaps they reset the idle mixture wrong? I don't know, this is beyond me... it's perplexing...

[Typrus]

Who rebuilt your carb? Did they have some kind of quality guarantee? If you are just suddenly running so badly after a rebuild, I'd blame the rebuilder.

[keith]

I agree with Typrus on this. I've had problems with the throttle plates on these carburetors, the little screw that holds them in place comes loose and the plates slip a little. Then they won't close all the way and that results in a high idle that you can't adjust.

Do not attempt to loosen these screws as I did the first time. They are mushroomed after they are installed at the factory. Any attempt to loosen them will result in breaking them. Just open the throttle all the way and reposition the plates (carburetor off the vehicle) until you can get the throttle to close all the way. Then tighten the screws a little and put some thread locker on the tips. It should wick down the threads and hold the screws for awhile. BTW, you cannot get replacement screws from Toyota and they are extremely difficult to find. I got lucky and got a pair at an Industrial Bolt and Supply company, but they were grade 8 and could not be mushroomed.

There are other things that can cause a high idle as well, but you really need a FSM to troubleshoot them. They only cost about $35 for these cars as I recall. A lot cheaper than many other cars.

[ARCHINSTL]

There are other things that can cause a high idle as well, but you really need a FSM to troubleshoot them. They only cost about $35 for these cars as I recall. A lot cheaper than many other cars.

As an aside, the Gen-yew-wine Toyota FSM was $90+ last year. Dunno what it is now. I got mine through either Barnes & Noble or Borders, who in turn ordered it from the Mothership in CA; I had a bunch of GiftCards - didn't save any money, though.
Tom M.

[tercel4wdrules]

Luckily, I have the '84 FSM which the previous owner included with the sale of the vehicle. I also inquired the price of the FSM from Toyota last year and it was about $90.

This high idle issue seems more complicated than I thought. I shouldn't have to fix this though, it's the rebuilder's responsibility.

JMD carburetors rebuilt my carburetor and the reason we chose them to rebuild our carb was because they had done a good job on our former '83 Tercel. The same guy who removed/installed the carb on the '83 did it on the '84 and this was about 7 yrs. ago. They gave me a 3 mo warranty, so we'll return on Saturday of this week and see what they'll do about it. They've been in business since 1983, therefore they know what they are doing. I will also show them that this idle problem caused the to fail part of the emission's test.

We'll see what happens, but meanwhile I have to replace the other stuff...

[takza]

This high idle issue seems more complicated than I thought. I shouldn't have to fix this though, it's the rebuilder's responsibility.

Your choke being stuck can cause a high idle and richness. Fix that by using carb cleaner and light oil on the shaft?

Maybe you just needed to pump the pedal a few times...the choke won't set in warm weather anyway.

If they actually check the timing...might try the Bosch plugs cause they do burn a little hotter....but can cause pinging.

There is an idle adjustment on the front of the carb that has to be set with the air cleaner off...might try that. Leave the cleaner off until you get it to idle down?

[Typrus]

I'd vote you bring it in. Bit of advice though. Be polite about the whole issue. If you come across as understanding and patient (without seeming push-over-ish) then you are more likely to get them to do it right the 1st time. 1st retry anyway. In all likelyhood, someone probably forgot to put something back, or adjust this-that or the other thing.
With a 3 month warrentee, you should not have a problem getting them to fix it up.

Good luck on that!

BTW, you might want to tell them to check the throttle plates for looseness. They can come loose, as keith had said. Just let them know you were informed this was sometimes an issue. That could well be it too. Might want to tell the to watch for the mushrooming if they do look. Though, if they break the bolts, it is essentially their fault and therefore their reponsibility to get the right replacement.

[tercel4wdrules]

Thanks to all for the help! We will definitely bring it in, and I will remember to be polite about the issue. They should fix it without any hassles...

I was looking for smog tips and read the thread in the repair guides and I just realized something that could've adversely affected the emissions. The oil is many months old and I have read that old oil drives up HC readings causing a "rich" mixture and could be part of the culprit. The oil is still tinged with a slight gasoline smell from the previous time the fuel pump was pumping gas in the oil and the oil smells burnt, also indicating breakdown. But I don't think changing the oil alone will bring down the HC reading significantly. The 02 sensor and cat converter are also suspects on my list. Replacing the spark plugs with those Bosch sounds like a good idea as well.

[tercel4wdrules]

Update: We took it back to the carburetor place. I guess the last time I fiddled around with the idle screw got the rpms down to 400-600 rpm the next time it was started, but not while I was doing the adjustment. Except now it doesn't idle when cold. Might be the choke acting up. The guy said it was fine the way it was running and said that if we wanted him to fix the choke that we would have to leave it a day. I don't know... I'm going to raise the idle to 800 rpm because it's hard to drive it like this. What really makes me angry are these drivers who cannot wait a second or two while you put the car in gear and take off, but yet as soon as the light turns green they wan't you to move! My dad is not used to the rpms being this low so he stalled once in traffic and the car behind us was royally pissed honking his/her horn, while my dad restarted the car and took off.

As for the MPG I think it was not very good. The low fuel light came on today and we had put like 4 gallons in last weekend and it wasn't driven more than 100 miles I think. Unfortunately, I didn't record the mileage. Today we filled it up with 5.2 gallons and I reset the trip meter so we'll see what kind of MPG it gets.

After we went to the carb place, the guy referred us to a place where they'll fix it to pass smog. The smog tech put it on the dyno and as always I make very careful observations (call me finickey if you may). The guy thought it was RWD, but I pointed out nicely that it was FWD. At least he paid attention, unlike the incident that Typrus shared on another thread...

But, there were several things I wasn't happy about. First, I think he started off in 2nd gear and I heard him ping the hey out of the engine while it caught up. Then as if that weren't enough he slipped the clutch quite a bit while in gear (thanks for screwing up what's left of the clutch!). I just learned that the smog standards are becoming more stringent, which is bad for us owners of older cars, and one thing has changed is that the dyno is set to simulate going up a small incline, which also explains why the car sounds like it's under a heavy load. The occurence that really bugged me the most was it looked like the car was going to come off the rollers as it veered sharply to the left (I felt my heart just about to cease pumping). Fortunately, he corrected it in time, but this is the reason why you're NOT supposed to be talking on the phone while you're driving the car on the dyno!

Well, we'll see what happens... it's going to get fixed and pass smog, so that's good.