2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
teranfirbt
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by teranfirbt »

The whole performance vs econo tune is a bit of a misnomer, unless you make a drastic change to the car. We'll tuned maps bring economy and performance because you can dial things in at different loads. Where multiple maps come into play is when you have an engine set up for different fuels or different boost targets. Say you have a boosted engine that can run 7 PSI on 92 octane or 20 psi on e85; that's a good use of swappable maps.
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Petros
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Petros »

that is true, and usually your part throttle loading is where you want max economy (such as in a freeway cruise), and you want full power at full throttle (such as when climbing a big hill or passing on the highway). but there are a few efficiency points to be gained by optimizing for economy rather than for max power. but too lean, and too rich, with result in both poor economy and low max power output.

I agree, there is a misconception that by leaning out the mixture does not result in better economy. the 4afe was optimized for economy, part throttle (freeway speed) max combustion efficiency over a broad rpm range, this generally follows the max torque curve, the rpm where max torque occurs is usually the rpm where the max fuel economy occurs, so you want to match that rpm at your hwy speed to get best economy. it is where the maximum volumetric efficiency of the engine occurs, that is determined by the intake and exhaust design, the cam timing, and the rpm. you just want to zero in your fuel air mixture for those rpms to tweak the economy to the highest level you can . the factory has federal emissions standard to meet, you do not. it seems to me if you optimize economy, you go the most miles for every gallon of fuel you burn, that should lower the total combustion products you put out per mile (and save you the most money in fuel costs). Federal emission standards are not measured that way, like most federal laws, those are determined by lobbyists, not by people worried about the environment.
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

teranfirbt, Petros, thanks for the advice. I'll try making some adjustments where ever necessary once the engine is running, and I'll make sure to post
what I come up with. Once I have a full tune done by Raven Autosports in Halifax I'll make sure to leave the tunerstudio files up on a public google
drive link for whoever needs something to work off of.

Thankfully in Nova Scotia we don't test for emissions (yet). As long as a vehicle has whatever emissions control stuff it came with from the factory
you're generally good to go, but some shops in my area tend to be lenient when it comes to EGR stuff.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
RIP 2016 Civic (wrist pin recall)
teranfirbt
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by teranfirbt »

Here are the maps from my 4AFE tune. Crank/Afterstart/Warmup are the hardest parts to tune :). You maybe be able to run more timing advance at full throttle if you run a crank trigger. My distributor based setup isn't as accurate so I had to pull some timing to make the engine not knock at full throttle.
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

teranfirbt wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:41 pm Here are the maps from my 4AFE tune. Crank/Afterstart/Warmup are the hardest parts to tune :). You maybe be able to run more timing advance at full throttle if you run a crank trigger. My distributor based setup isn't as accurate so I had to pull some timing to make the engine not knock at full throttle.
Thanks for that. If what I have setup doesn't play nice while the engine is running I'll try blending what you posted in with what I have.
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Got a little update about the TPS and IACV issue with the ITB setup I'll be using. To reiterate, the SMR2U 4A-FE kit does not include the appropriate
TPS and IACV. Good news on the TPS, it's the same part that came off the 4A-FE throttle body, so problem solved there. Bad news (sort of) on the
IACV side. While I can find 4A-GE 20V IACVs around, most are used and demand way too high of a price. Between $100 - $200 CAD for a used part
like this does not sit right with me. So until I can find one for a good price, I'll try to use a vacuum bleed style IACV from a BMW M50 or M20 engine.
I can get one of these used for a couple bucks from a junk car with the connector so that will be the route I'll take for now.

Part numbers for the IACV and connector:
BOSCH 0280140545
WVE 1P1421

I have yet to determine the pinout, but I'm fairly certain that these are also PWM.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
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drafting3d
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by drafting3d »

Definitely a tricky issue with ITB's
Im very keen to see what you end up with!
Even if the appropriate part is expensive it would be better to go with a 100% proven solution.
The bosch unit is solid, if you can set it up correctly!

I have seen adaptors to suit ford style IACV, the 2JZ crew do it a bit over here.
Nowdays though, E-throttle is making alot of the factory external sensors and adjustery bits obsolete

this thread below is an eye opener if you can understand it
http://www.mrm-racing.se/forum/forum/pu ... idle-valve
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Agreed on going for the correct part. I'll just have to keep my eyes peeled for something.

If I wasn't going to use the ITB setup an e-throttle would be interesting to use. Right off the bat I could see the 1ZZ-FE e-throttle and pedal
being useful for stuff like idle control. Not sure if they fit on the factory 4A-FE manifold, but I'm sure some custom work might sort that out, or
even a custom manifold.

https://github.com/noisymime/speeduino/issues/457
Currently the Speeduino does not directly support e-throttles but I'm sure something can be done to make that work, and hopefully the next revision
adds in native support. I think MS3 supports e-throttles.
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Finally got around to taking the bottom end apart. Was waiting for a friend to finish up with my balancer puller.
Had to grind down the head of the crank bolt as it was rounded off, and I'll be replacing the balancer.
Good news, the bottom end internals like the top end are in very good condition, crank journals are still near new, all the bearings had very light wear
marks, pistons were a little dirty, but overall great condition, and the sleeves still have the crosshatching in them.

20210407_144858_HDR.jpg
20210407_144908.jpg
20210407_144915_HDR.jpg
I also took some time to look over the crank as I was under the impression that 4A-FE cranks aren't really that strong compared to the GE cranks and
the 7A-FE crank. But what struck me is most of what I read said that the 4A-FE crank in not balanced from the factory, but there is obviously areas
where material has been removed to balance the crank. After doing a ring test I can tell for sure that the crank is cast and not forged. Maybe what
I was reading was pointing more towards the 1st gen 4A-FE and 4A-F cranks.

There is also an interesting development in my plans that happened over the Easter weekend, so I'll go over that a little later, but it's sure to be
interesting.
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Petros
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Petros »

sure looks like the crank is balanced. I do not see how they can build a crank without balancing it, perhaps if it was so precision made it does not need it? it seems that that crank has seams in it that looks like a forged crank. on a cast crank they typically have tight casing joints that do not need grinding. forged cranks have wider seams that are ground down. no matter, everything published about this engine say it has a cast crank shaft.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

I didn't even notice the grinding :lol:
I'm gonna assume when people say the 4A-FE crank isn't balanced or forged that they're referring 1st gen and 4A-F engines.
I'd have no worries about running this crank in a 4A-GE swap for these Tercels, sure looks like they're up to the task.
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teranfirbt
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by teranfirbt »

The holes drilled on the end of the counter balance are definitely for balancing ;). I imagine they forged the 4AFE cranks using the same tooling as 4AGE cranks, since the only difference in the early ones is 6 flywheel bolts vs. 8. Even if it is cast, Toyota tended to make things stout as hell in the 80's, so it's likely that it's a quality piece.
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Well, I guess I should go over the development in my plans that I mentioned above.

A friend of mine is changing out the head on her AE86 from a silvertop to a blacktop and I was offered the complete head minus the exhaust header.
The only catch to that is I need to drive 2.5 hours to Yarmouth NS to get it, but it's had me thinking about just going for it rather than using the
4A-FE head. The other catch with using the silvertop head would of course be using 20V pistons. The only thing I need to figure out right now is if
the little end on 4A-FE rods is 18mm or 20mm. If I can get away with using the rods I have that'd be nice as 2nd gen 4A-FE rods are very close to
silvertop rods.

As for the head I have, there is someone I'd like to ask if they want it if I decide to go with the head that was offered to me.
Same stuff still applies for the ecu and ignition setup I made plans for. With the silvertop head, mounting the 1ZZ-FE coils will be a lot easier
as companies like SQ Engineering make mount plates and other such parts for these heads.
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AugustusFerdinand
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by AugustusFerdinand »

Even if you don't use the head for this project, a 2.5 hour drive for a 20v head is a no brainer in my opinion just to have on hand.

That said, using the 20V head is going to increase costs of getting this done if you're concerned with that.
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teranfirbt
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by teranfirbt »

20v pistons will have 20mm pins. I believe the 4afe rods can be bored for them, with bronze bushings installed. The 4af and early 4age rod big ends have 40mm journals, where the 4age got 42mm journals when they went to the 7 rib variety in 87. There are aftermarket rods that have 40mm crank journals with 20mm small ends, but they might cost more than the rest of the engine...
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