Turbo Tercel

Post about yourself, your Tercel, or your Tercel projects in here, share pictures of your Tercel, or post trip threads!
User avatar
SirFoxx
Top Notch Member
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:42 pm
My tercel:: 1981 Toyota Tercel w/ 7age

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by SirFoxx »

Petros wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:02 pm
Hey look, no problem, I am not telling not to do it. I am not stopping you. please do not take my comments as being critical., more power to you. Good for you for giving it a try. Seriously. it will be interesting to see your results. I am just sharing some experience so you may be able to benefit from it, so you can perhaps take some precautions to counter what may become troublesome. And I doubt the early lighter connecting rods will be a problem, toyota tends to way over kill the low end (compare the 3a rods to say a similar size honda civic engine, which has more power output). I would not worry about the crank or connecting rods, it is the head that will be the limiting factor I think.

while true I have never put a turbo on a 3ac, I do have some turbocharging design experience. And perhaps you do have more turbo experience than me, I only worked for AirReasrch turbo charger division as an application engineer in 1981-2. we designed turbo systems for production cars in the early 1980's (when I worked there) for all the US, Japanese and European cars that used an AiReaseach turbo system, I designed the systems, the EFI, induction, specified the size of the turbine and compressor (A/r ratio) to optimize performance, and over saw the dyno testing, and mapped the performance, of the preproduction prototype engines. I also published technical articles on the performance of turbo changed engines in academic journals. During that time I also worked for the racing division of Nissan when they ran a factory backed turbo charged 300ZX race car (I assists with the engine development, induction, cooling system and the suspension) from 1978-84 (on and off for different projects). the 300zx race car used a production based 3.0 liter engine that was tweaked with the turbo to put out over 900 hp. that car was undefeated when it was running the IMSA circuit.

what is the extent of turbo charging experience do you have?
You always bring this same story up with no actual proof that you did it. If you have all this vast knowledge, why not put it to use and give some advice..? Why not use said knowledge and turbo your own car? Why not post your findings online so others can benefit from it? You can stroke your ego and talk yourself up all you want, but if youre not going to put it to any use, then what good is it?

The early 3a rods are not only smaller, but they use a size smaller rod bolt. Definitely not as strong as the later ones, nor are they interchangeable. They are a bit smaller width wise, and as my roommate found out, if you do use one, itll chew up the rod bearing and spin it.

Toyota managed to crank out 90-something horse out of a 3a--mind you, it was a twin downdraft carb setup. I bet if all you do is increase the intake size and possibly make a more free-breathing exhaust, you'd gain a good chunk of power.
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with TURBOOO???
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11720
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by Petros »

SirFoxx wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:54 pm
You always bring this same story up with no actual proof that you did it. If you have all this vast knowledge, why not put it to use and give some advice..? Why not use said knowledge and turbo your own car? Why not post your findings online so others can benefit from it? You can stroke your ego and talk yourself up all you want, but if youre not going to put it to any use, then what good is it?
why are you so hostile? Do you think I am making it up?

what do you want for proof I worked a job 40 years ago? you want to drag my old boss out of the grave and have him make statement for you? I do not even know how to find any "proof" . Trevor Harris I think is still alive (a co-worker), he would remember me. the driver John Morton I also think is still alive, he would remember me. My old bosses were Don Devendorf (also a driver) and John Knepp, both long retired, not even sure if they are still alive. it has been many decades since I talked to any of them.

I have been giving you, and the everyone else, nearly 12,000 free posts I make on this forum, so you may benefit from my experience. should I charge you for my advice? in my consulting firm I bill my time at $200/hr. perhaps that would give you the legitimacy you want. what do you expect? I should write a book for you?

You are free to ignore what I write. None of it is written as an attack against you. I do not understand why you take such a hostile attitude, perhaps it is because I am not stroking your ego? IDK. I also noticed that you, rather than respond, attack me. Why? And you still have not listed your own experience.

how does it help my ego to share my experience with a few hundred DIY shade tree mechanics trying to keep their 35 year old economy-boxes running? I do not care what you do, take it or leave it. It does not hurt me or my ego one bit.

You need to examine your own behavior, and your own motives yourself. I know why I am here, why are you?
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
User avatar
SirFoxx
Top Notch Member
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:42 pm
My tercel:: 1981 Toyota Tercel w/ 7age

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by SirFoxx »

Petros wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:58 pm
SirFoxx wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:54 pm
You always bring this same story up with no actual proof that you did it. If you have all this vast knowledge, why not put it to use and give some advice..? Why not use said knowledge and turbo your own car? Why not post your findings online so others can benefit from it? You can stroke your ego and talk yourself up all you want, but if youre not going to put it to any use, then what good is it?
why are you so hostile? Do you think I am making it up?

what do you want for proof I worked a job 40 years ago? you want to drag my old boss out of the grave and have him make statement for you? I do not even know how to find any "proof" . Trevor Harris I think is still alive (a co-worker), he would remember me. the driver John Morton I also think is still alive, he would remember me. My old bosses were Don Devendorf (also a driver) and John Knepp, both long retired, not even sure if they are still alive. it has been many decades since I talked to any of them.

I have been giving you, and the everyone else, nearly 12,000 free posts I make on this forum, so you may benefit from my experience. should I charge you for my advice? in my consulting firm I bill my time at $200/hr. perhaps that would give you the legitimacy you want. what do you expect? I should write a book for you?

You are free to ignore what I write. None of it is written as an attack against you. I do not understand why you take such a hostile attitude, perhaps it is because I am not stroking your ego? IDK. I also noticed that you, rather than respond, attack me. Why? And you still have not listed your own experience.

how does it help my ego to share my experience with a few hundred DIY shade tree mechanics trying to keep their 35 year old economy-boxes running? I do not care what you do, take it or leave it. It does not hurt me or my ego one bit.

You need to examine your own behavior, and your own motives yourself. I know why I am here, why are you?
Sorry if I am coming off as hostile. Without verbal annunciation, it is easy to do that with people. I am trying to come off with a curious tone, not an angry keyboard warrior. But, if thats how you want to think I am talking, go for it.

I have tangible evidence on the facebook page of some my knowledge, which youve seen and thoroughly criticized. Do you have more experience than me? Maybe. I have a hard time believing people when they say the same thing over and over again with no proof. "3a bad, I worked on race cars for nissan, which reaffirms 3a is bad". No one wants to read a book you type out about what a badass you were working for nissan just to learn that you dont like 3a's. Yea, they suck performance wise. But they never were meant for that. We all know that, and accept that. The fact a lot of them outlast the cars with several hundred thousand miles / kilometers says that toyota spent time engineering them. No one has ever pushed a 3a to see its limits. I'd rather not get that far, but everyone that has seen it and rode in my wagon seems to enjoy everything about what I'm doing.

Again, sorry if you're upsetty spaghetti about me "attacking you". If you're going to write about how you worked for a race team 1 in every 5 or so posts, I think some of us would like to see some pics or something :)
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with TURBOOO???
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11720
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by Petros »

SirFoxx,

you made the claim that you had more experience than me with turbos, I listed my experience, and I have yet to see you list yours. you want proof, what do you expect? And what is your experience with turbos? you have questioned and attacked my integrity and yet you have not answered a single question.

During all of that time I worked for AirReasrch, Nissan, and also before than I worked as a mechanic for two club racers (one ran a volvo sedan in SCCA ProRally, the other an Alfa GTV is SCCA), was way before the internet, and even before digital photography. I may have a few clippings and pictures in an album somewhere in my attic, but it proves nothing.

Here is a link to a story about Eletromotive, which was the subcontractor to Nissan USA, and than was bought out by Nissan to be dome the racing division of NissanUSA. you might find this interesting reading in this link, I know most all of those names listed, and worked with, or for, some of them. I helped design and develop the cars pictured, part of a crew of about a dozen other mechanics, machinists, techs, etc.

https://alex62.typepad.com/imsablog/200 ... otive.html


Feel free to add a turbo to your 3ac, I am not stopping you. You seem to be defending your choices by making demands on me, without responding to my actual questions. For me, I would rather install a better engine, the 4age will get you the same performance gain without the turbo, and all of the related mods required. you installed a turbo and than rather than list your reasons, demand to see "proof" of my previous employment. this seems a rather odd way to respond.

I have not installed any turbos in any car I own, and I choose not to own a turbo charged car at all. that is because I know a lot about them, and I do not think they are worth having on a daily driver (I have my reasons, and turbos have a place, but not on any thing I drive). You can do what you want, add a turbo, good for you. there are lots of Tercel4wd owners on this forum that have done a lot of crazy mods to their tercels, good for them. that does not mean I would do it either.

Why do you think adding a turbo is such a good deal? how did you size the compressor and turbine for your application? what are the A/r ratios you used? did you compensate for the air/fuel ratio on your installation? have you mapped the full throttle pressure response in intake and exhaust? have you measured your power output?
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
User avatar
SirFoxx
Top Notch Member
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:42 pm
My tercel:: 1981 Toyota Tercel w/ 7age

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by SirFoxx »

I dont need to list my experience as you already know it as you already criticize me on my facebook posts about how the 3a is bad and you worked for nissan, thus 3a bad.

We're both acting like children. You constantly saying 3a is bad because nissan good, and me trying to get anything useful from you. All the knowledge you have is way out of date anyways. I would half expect you to offer some useful advice aside ditching the 3a since you worked for a racing team, but that isnt going to happen.

Unless either of us have anything else useful and meaningful to say to each other, I am done with this particular conversation.
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with TURBOOO???
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11720
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by Petros »

SirFoxx wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:15 am you already criticize me on my facebook posts about how the 3a is bad and you worked for nissan, thus 3a bad.
I never wrote any such thing, go back and reread it if you want.

What I did write about the number of head gaskets I replaced on my own 3ac, how many I replaced for others, and others who had the same problem with the 3a head gasket on this forum. that would be over 20 3ac head gaskets I have replace on the Tercel, no other older cars I have ever worked on (that would be a lot) has had this kind of problem. In stock form the 3ac head gasket appears acceptable if never over heated, but pushing much past stock performance might be troublesome from both my observations and my personal experience. For some reason you have made that some kind of personal attack.

I suggested if you are going to go to the trouble of adding a turbo, using another engine in the 4a family would be a better starting place for not much more effort. you would end up with better performance and likely much better reliability. you are free to learn that lesson on your own, the hard way, without attacking me and demanding I provide "proof" of my experience. No one on the decades of my time on this forum has ever done that, exotically as a moderator for much of that time.

I never criticized you, but you seem to keep making this personal. You claimed you have more turbo experience, and perhaps you do, but you have yet to demonstrate that, at the same time you demanded "proof" from me of my experience.

Do you think you are behaving reasonably?
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
User avatar
SirFoxx
Top Notch Member
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:42 pm
My tercel:: 1981 Toyota Tercel w/ 7age

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by SirFoxx »

Petros wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:19 pm
SirFoxx wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:15 am you already criticize me on my facebook posts about how the 3a is bad and you worked for nissan, thus 3a bad.
I never wrote any such thing, go back and reread it if you want.

its not "everyone", it is ME. early on when I first got a T4wd with a blown engine, I wanted to tweak it for more power. I just tried to get a bit more than the shitty 63hp, which should not be a big deal. but I kept blowing head gaskets, burning exhaust valves, failed pistons, and eventually, after like 8 new head gaskets in 2 years, was ready to cut up the head to see what was wrong with it. I had worked for Nissan when they had a racing program and redesigned their 3 L V6 for use in a GTO race car, and it was use later on a GT-prototype race car. I know a lot about head design, and on the Nissan V6 we were able to get over 3 times the power output reliably with the redesigned head (stock was 178 hp, full race version of that same engine was about 900 hp). the head design is the single most important aspect to producing more power, presuming the low end can take the stress (and both the old Nissans and the toyota are very good about that). I had happened to also own an all-trac corrolla that I rebuilt, the short block was almost identical to the tercel 3ac. but studying the coolant passages in the 3a head I realized the problem, the 3a head does not cool evenly because of the poorly designed passages. I than bought a 4ac to replace the unreliable 3ac in my Tercel4wd, and also studied the head design. it was similar, but the coolant passages were slightly different, better, but not as good as it could be. I altered it further to improve the coolant circulation to get a more uniform cooling, and than, like magic, most of my head gasket problems went away. even with a performance cam and higher compression, the head gasket would hold up for 100k miles or more. that was not possible with the 3a head. you can go read about it in more detail in the head gasket thread I did over on the T4wd forum. Toyota had hired Yamaha to design the 4age and 4afe head to put on the 4a short block, both of those are very reliable and put out way more power than the orginal 4ac (and the 3ac for that matter). that is a much better designed head, cools properly, it breaths better, is more rigid and durable.
Something something 3a head bad, I worked for Nissan, head gaskets also bad. Straight from Facebook on my post.
I suggested if you are going to go to the trouble of adding a turbo, using another engine in the 4a family would be a better starting place for not much more effort. you would end up with better performance and likely much better reliability. you are free to learn that lesson on your own, the hard way, without attacking me and demanding I provide "proof" of my experience. No one on the decades of my time on this forum has ever done that, exotically as a moderator for much of that time.

I never criticized you, but you seem to keep making this personal. You claimed you have more turbo experience, and perhaps you do, but you have yet to demonstrate that, at the same time you demanded "proof" from me of my experience.

Do you think you are behaving reasonably?
Criticism isn't a bad thing. You criticized my build but saying that I should have used a different engine. Fair enough.

Like I said I never "demanded" anything from you. Everything was asked in a curious tone. If you're going to rant about how you worked at Nissan building 900hp engines in every post about how bad the 3a is, then some proof or actual advice would be appreciated.

This thread is already fucked because of both of us arguing with each other. I'm done responding. If you want to continue this, pm on the facetubes.

And yes daddy, I'm acting appropriately :)
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with TURBOOO???
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel
User avatar
splatterdog
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:26 am
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by splatterdog »

If I had as many bad headgaskets as Petros, I would be biased towards a 3a. My experience over seven T4's combined million plus miles couldn't be any more different.
terceldude
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:04 pm
Location: Wellesley, MA 02481 USA

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by terceldude »

SirFoxx wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:28 am
Petros wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:19 pm
SirFoxx wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:15 am you already criticize me on my facebook posts about how the 3a is bad and you worked for nissan, thus 3a bad.
I never wrote any such thing, go back and reread it if you want.

its not "everyone", it is ME. early on when I first got a T4wd with a blown engine, I wanted to tweak it for more power. I just tried to get a bit more than the shitty 63hp, which should not be a big deal. but I kept blowing head gaskets, burning exhaust valves, failed pistons, and eventually, after like 8 new head gaskets in 2 years, was ready to cut up the head to see what was wrong with it. I had worked for Nissan when they had a racing program and redesigned their 3 L V6 for use in a GTO race car, and it was use later on a GT-prototype race car. I know a lot about head design, and on the Nissan V6 we were able to get over 3 times the power output reliably with the redesigned head (stock was 178 hp, full race version of that same engine was about 900 hp). the head design is the single most important aspect to producing more power, presuming the low end can take the stress (and both the old Nissans and the toyota are very good about that). I had happened to also own an all-trac corrolla that I rebuilt, the short block was almost identical to the tercel 3ac. but studying the coolant passages in the 3a head I realized the problem, the 3a head does not cool evenly because of the poorly designed passages. I than bought a 4ac to replace the unreliable 3ac in my Tercel4wd, and also studied the head design. it was similar, but the coolant passages were slightly different, better, but not as good as it could be. I altered it further to improve the coolant circulation to get a more uniform cooling, and than, like magic, most of my head gasket problems went away. even with a performance cam and higher compression, the head gasket would hold up for 100k miles or more. that was not possible with the 3a head. you can go read about it in more detail in the head gasket thread I did over on the T4wd forum. Toyota had hired Yamaha to design the 4age and 4afe head to put on the 4a short block, both of those are very reliable and put out way more power than the orginal 4ac (and the 3ac for that matter). that is a much better designed head, cools properly, it breaths better, is more rigid and durable.
Something something 3a head bad, I worked for Nissan, head gaskets also bad. Straight from Facebook on my post.
I suggested if you are going to go to the trouble of adding a turbo, using another engine in the 4a family would be a better starting place for not much more effort. you would end up with better performance and likely much better reliability. you are free to learn that lesson on your own, the hard way, without attacking me and demanding I provide "proof" of my experience. No one on the decades of my time on this forum has ever done that, exotically as a moderator for much of that time.

I never criticized you, but you seem to keep making this personal. You claimed you have more turbo experience, and perhaps you do, but you have yet to demonstrate that, at the same time you demanded "proof" from me of my experience.

Do you think you are behaving reasonably?
Criticism isn't a bad thing. You criticized my build but saying that I should have used a different engine. Fair enough.

Like I said I never "demanded" anything from you. Everything was asked in a curious tone. If you're going to rant about how you worked at Nissan building 900hp engines in every post about how bad the 3a is, then some proof or actual advice would be appreciated.

This thread is already fucked because of both of us arguing with each other. I'm done responding. If you want to continue this, pm on the facetubes.

And yes daddy, I'm acting appropriately :)


Wow lol! You guys should come party at my house. Ill get the beers 😂😂😂😂
K-Business
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11720
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by Petros »

again, nothing there criticizes you SirFoxx, I was sharing my experience, and giving you some background. I would not do it, but you can do what you want, I am not stopping you.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
User avatar
dlb
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 6826
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:03 pm
My tercel:: none currently, 7 previous
Location: bc, canada

Re: Turbo Tercel

Post by dlb »

Petros wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:49 pm again, nothing there criticizes you SirFoxx, I was sharing my experience, and giving you some background. I would not do it, but you can do what you want, I am not stopping you.
Why are you even still responding at this point, Peter? It seems like you are insisting on having the last word, even if that last word is just the same thing you've already said multiple times in this thread. Someone started a thread, you gave some input, it wasn't well received, that should have been the end of the story. There's no need to keep responding.
Post Reply