Rebirth after 300K

[SynthDesign]

The car drove well. Lots of torque in the low end. LOTS!
I only literary drove it around the block.
I'm hoping to have the doors and hood on by next weekend and get a full 30 minutes plus of driving it. The Neighbors in my hood gave me some pretty dirty looks while making the loop.

More than anything, I love how the driver's seat feels. So comfortable!

[Neu]

Synth, get the fuck down here already.

[SynthDesign]

Synth, get the fuck down here already.

DUDE! Workin on it. Just finished the rear hatch door. Tomorrow I can start putting parts back on. Soooo maybe a street legal test drive this weekend.

First oil change after 500 miles, 2nd oil change round 1,500 miles. Then the clutch and motor should be broken in. Hopefully everything will be ok and I can then go play with it.

[SynthDesign]

It's a runner!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfR-dbvrI50

I think I still need to bleed the brakes again, but I thinks it's good enough to drive to work.

[ARCHINSTL]

Sounds sweet!
Tom M.

[SynthDesign]

Much stalling in my part to get this guy back on the road.

I've started the "Barto" lift and should have it done this weekend. I'm working on a way to run the rear sway bar with the lift as well.

Ran into a bit of a snag with the rear panhard bar. The upper bushing is dislocated and the bushing sleeve is stuck in the bar. I tried a 1 ton press and even a torch and it didn't budge so it's off to Toyota to have then press it out and a new one in.

Pics to follow

[SynthDesign]

The General is up and running. So far I've manged to drive 156 miles. A little less than 350 miles till the first oil change and rpm bump. I've been trying to keep the rpms below 3,300 for the first part of break in.
Here's what I've observed.
205/50/15s are too wide of a tires without offsetting outward and cutting the front fenders.
I can do 85mph cruising at 3,000rpms in 5th gear with the 3.73 final gear ratio
The Barto BC lift is handling quite well.
I have no idea how I've owned 8 tercels and not one had a sunroof till now. Best tercel luxury upgrade ever.
Napa gold brake pads SUCK! Despite the vented rotor I cannot lock them up or modulate them. I'm gonna order a set of braided lines and Hawk street pads

IMG_0033.JPG

[ARCHINSTL]

I don't mean to ignore your other achievements in this car, but - WOW ! to 85 at 3000 RPM! I realize that you have the lower ratio and my '86 has the higher ratio, but still... With the very slightly bigger 185-60R14 Kumho that Goldie is now wearing, it's still right at 3000 for 60 MPH.
What are your 60 MPH RPMs?
Tom M.

[skyerunner]

Hey Synth,
I'm just about to emabark on the barto lift as well and was curious about your comment on not being able to get the panhard bar off. Do you need to take that off to do this lift or just the swaybar? Also, what did you do to get vented disks up front?
Thanks,
JB

[Petros]

what did you do to get vented disks up front?

See my brake up grade thread at:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4998

You can use '92 or newer Tercel front rotors and calipers, or as I did, MR2 calipers. The MR2 master cylinder swap gives better braking authority as well.

[SynthDesign]

What Petros said.
I have spacers to go between the caliper and mount if your spacer is too thick also. I was 1.4 mm off and had to space my caliper out a touch for even pad wear.
Here's how I ended up.

IMG_0077.JPG

As for the panhard bar coming off... no. I had problems getting the bushing out of the top part.

IMG_0064.JPG

And no, no need to remove it. Mine made a clunk when I jacked it up. The inner mount was completely free.

60mph is about 3k in 4th or just under 1800rpms in 5th. It's starting to pings a bit so I'm gonna play with the timing. I'm also running quite a bit rich, so leaning it out should help with the horrific milage. First tank was less than 20mpg.

[Petros]

it does not look like you have much of the wheel studs showing past your rotor hub. basic rule is you want at least the dia. of the stud or bolt in full tread on the nut. This is a good reason not to go too thick with the spacer, you will have to install longer wheel studs to make sure you get enough grip on the lug nuts.

[skyerunner]

This is such a sweet project by the way. Pretty jealous of the whole deal. Seats. Exhaust... Rad. Anyways, it sounds like you used the disk and the calipers from the 92+ Tercel. Were all the other parts you put in from the 92+ Tercel or did you use the other MR2 parts like Petros did. Just trying to find a way to not have to get longer wheel studs (although it doesn't seem like it would be too big of a problem to get longer ones... is it?).
Also, I just put on a "Barto Lift" and was wondering if you'd figured out a way to run the sway bar yet, or if it is really OK without.
Cheers,
JB

[SynthDesign]

Petros,
Your totally right. I had to press factory studs into the new hub. The picture was taken before I torqued them down all the way. I'd say I have almost 20mm of thread to bolt. Stock is what 25. Good enough.

My spacers were touch too thick by 1.2mm to "Perfectly" space the caliper to the rotor. If you made thinner spacers, you could get one more thread. If you're really worried, new hardened studs are pretty cheap.

Again, I used stock tercel lines, calipers and rotors w/ some made spacers. I'm still not sure the stock brake booster is sufficient. I like Petro's booster upgrade. I've also found out the the stock length 85 to 89 Toyota 4Runner Stainless lines will work on our tercel if you've done the upgraded caliper with the banjo fitting. I'm gonna order some in the next month and give it a test.

Skyerunner,
I can get the rear wheel to clunk in a fast, hard street turns. For off road, I'm sure its not required and most likely beneficial to not have if you're flexing it out. For 85% of my driving, I want it. Just haven't gotten to it.

What's your thoughts Petros? You're rockin the Barto BC lift too aren't ya?

My last week has been spent running through a 77 TE38 Corolla for my hair stylist. Hopefully before the meet, I'll have something fabbed up.

[Petros]

What do you mean "the rear wheel clunk in a fast, hard street turns", do you have wheel hop? Than either you need better dampers (shock absorbers) or the geometry of the rear suspension is way off in the turn. A rear anti sway bar would limit roll and reduce the bad geometry, but it actually unloads the inside wheel (increases weight transfer). You have to determine the cause of the "clunk".

It seems to me without a rear sway bar you could be allowing the front inside wheel to lift in a hard turn on the street. The stiffer springs can replace some of the function of the sway bar, the idea with the sway bar is to get more roll resistance without using stiffer springs. Stiffer springs also increase roll resistance, but make the ride stiffer too.

It is possible the stiffer springs will not need the addition of a rear anti-sway bar, but that would be a lucky coincidence.

The usual process is to select the stiffness of springs you want, front and rear, based on the impact loads you want to absorb (the faster the impact, the stiffer spring you need, same is true with size of the impact), and than you go to a skid pad (large flat paved surface) and see if the car under or over-steers by driving in a circle (usually 100 foot diameter). If it under-steers, you need a stiffer sway bar in back (or a softer one in front), if it over-steers, you need a stiffer sway bar in front, or a softer one in the rear. You have to trial and error this until you ideally get neutral steering (for performance driving some race drivers prefer slight over-steer, for most drivers slight under-steer is safer and much better than the heavy under-steer most manufacturers put into most of their cars). With a neutral steering car, when at the limit of traction applying the throttle will cause it to slight over-steer, and letting off the throttle will cause it to slight under-steer. This allows a driver to use the throttle to help control turn when at the limit of traction.

The overall anti-roll stiffness ideally limits lateral roll of the body to about 2 degrees from the horizon (as determined from photographs of the car at max lateral acceleration on the skid pad). Note that on a hard surface with good grip, it means you would need a much stiffer set of anti-sway bars than for loose surface like gravel roads. On a loose surface you will have much less lateral acceleration because of the less grip than on a dry hard surface, and you would want sway bars that are not as stiff. Wider better gripping tires will also need more roll resistance to limit total amount of roll in a hard turn. You can see that it is not possible to optimize a road car to handle well on gravel roads, and visa-versa. It is always a compromise.

For us we do not have a lot of options of front and rear say bars, springs or shock absorbers, but the early rwd corollas and celicas use lighter rear bars than the Tercel4wd, that can be swapped out. they possibly use different stiffness of springs that can also be considered. If none of them work you will either have to alter a stock sway bar and springs, or fab from scratch new adjustable front and rear bars.

I was considering the Barto lift, but I do not want to go that high since most of my driving is hwy, with regular gravel road driving. So I am not sure I want to go that stiff. I was considering keeping the stock springs and than find or fab a stiffer rear bar to limit the amount of heavy under-steer the stock suspension gives us. I am a bit frustrated at how soft the stock springs are on the Tercel, especially for rough roads like I drive on daily (too easy to bottom the springs). So I bought a pair of rear Pathfinder springs for my car, but I have yet to install them. I want to cut them down some so it does not raise the back of my car as much (I want to limit lift it to about 3/4" front and rear), but cutting the spring makes it stiffer. So I may not need a larger rear bar by the time I am done. And I may go for the front Camry springs when I am done messing with the rear. Than I will have to see if the under-steer/over-steer needs to be balanced front and rear.

There are fancy computer models the factory designers use to determine tire size (and grip), suspension geometry, weight transfer, shock dampening, and front and rear sway bar sizes. For us we just try trial and error. Gabrial and koni used to make adjust able shocks, that allowed you to experiment. Usually adjustable stiffness sway bars are custom race shop type of stuff, or you make your own. Cutting springs, and shaving sway bars gives us some adjustment, as well as adjusting front and rear tire pressure to some extent (not too much of course or you wear the tires out faster). So it helps to know which way to go when you are trying to fine tune the suspension to the road and driving style you like.