4AGE swap into 85 4WD

[SynthDesign]

I've been busy helping my friends prep cars for autoXing and had little time in the garage to work on the silverbullet.

So far I've built a pretty comprehensive to-to-list.

First thing to do is finish cleaning up the trans and installing new external oil seals. I know a few have asked how to install the 4wd selector seal so I'll do a write up of that too as well as propper home-found install tool.

On Monday, I'm gonna call SPEC and discuss clutches. I'm not sure if I will need to run a stage one or two considering it is still the stock diameter and a lot more horse power. Petros listed a few good clutch options and I'm gonna try my luck with SPEC.

At this point I'm trying to find someone locally, (HINT HINT) who might be up for giving me a hand with the wiring. I know it's only 75 or so color coded wires but I'd feel much better with a hand, even if it's just someone holding a beer over my shoulder telling me to use more solder.

The motor is ready to be torn down but a bit of cleaning and organizing is in order before that happens. I have three other blocks lying about and I don't wanna get things confused. Again another place where another person would be great.

The flywheels should be done soon. Thx again Petros and Logbear. I can't wait to see how they turned out.

I also have to pull my Corbeau seat mount out of my 83 and make a template for "bottom mount" aftermarket seats for the silver bullet. Corbeau still makes the brackets but the price has tripled since I bought mine. Now $94 which ends up being $128 with a slider shipped per side. http://www.corbeau.com/service/bracket_guide/

[SynthDesign]

I spoke with Jeremy at SPEC today regarding clutches.
Here's what he said:

Synth, Thanks for the email. Here are the numbers as factored relative to each stage:
Stage 1 130lb.-ft
Stage 2 149lb.-ft
Stage 2+ 167lb.-ft
Stage 3 178lb.-ft
Stage 4 178lb.-ft
Let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks!!

J. Auvil
800-828-4379
http://www.specclutch.com

[Petros]

Wow, it has been a while since the last progress report.

My machinist finally got started on the flywheels, here are some pics of the progress.

First is the stock 3a flywheel with 4 holes welded up, the welder has to heat the flywheel up to red hot to get the cast iron to weld reliabley. That cost $100 for both flywheels to have the holes welded up ($50 each). It really cleans off the old oil and rust so it looks like new after the welding. Next to the welded 3a flywheel is the stock 4age flywheel for comparison with the eight crank bolt holes.

The welding distorts the flywheels somewhat, so first the center hole has to be made true, and than a spindle made so holes can be match drilled accurately. The 4age flywheel on the right in the first photo has the precision spindle in the center hole.

The next photo shows the 3a flywheel cleaned up on the lath and ready to drill.

Both flywheels are mounted on the spindle and the 8 holes are lined up, and match drilled on the mill. The 3rd photo is of the flywheel with 8 holes to match the 4age crank, this now will allow the 4age to bolt up to our Tercel transmissions. It could be used like this if it was not too heavy.

The last picture is of the flywheel finally being lightened. Once all the weight is off, they have to be rebalanced. It hopefully should not be long now to have them done.

Now to get to rebuilding my 4age engine. I just picked up a transaxle and rear diff with the 4.1:1 ratio to convert my Tercel to the lower final drive ratio. At this rate I will be lucky to have it all together by the end of the year.

[peter_tuning]

my 4a ge have
flywheel 2a -toyota tercel and crank 4a-fe (europishe toyota carina e / corolla) ----6 bolt
need balanced flywheel, crank, pulley and clutch

[Petros]

That would be the other way to make it work, get a 4afe 6-bolt crank and put it in the early 4age engine. The later 4age have larger main journal diameter. Swapping the cranks is probably cheaper if you can get used parts cheap, but a lot more work.

[SynthDesign]

HELL YA!!!!
First good news in a while. Thanks Petros.
I still owe for the other 8 bolt flywheel.

Honestly I've made no progress on my swap. Been busy dealing with life and a lot of other problems. Unfortunately, it's also moved down the priority list.
First the 3ac bigbore swap for my daily driver, next fix the pump and fuel issues with my aw11, then the 4age swap.
I've talked to Dr. Tweak on the phoenix tuning website regarding the swap and I'm thinking about having him do the wire-harness as it would save time and most likely a lot of headache.
http://phoenixtuning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=286

Once again, You the Man, Petros!

The later 4age have larger main journal diameter. Swapping the cranks is probably cheaper if you can get used parts cheap, but a lot more work.

I have yet to find a 4AGE with the smaller crank journals than the 4 I have laying about. Has to be pre OCt of 84 if it exists.

Also any word on what fuel tank you think is gonna work the best?

[Petros]

I have not tried the fit yet, but it appears the fuel tank from the '85 Celica GTS will work the best. It is slightly larger but it is shaped the same and the filler neck is in almost in the same place, and it has the 3 wire sender and the in-tank EFI fuel pump oriented the correct way. The filler looks close enough that if it does not fit as is, it would not take much to "adjust" it to fit with a length of flex hose.

BTW, I just picked up a six-speed 4x4 transmission, drive shaft and 4.1:1 rear differential from an '85 at the Arlington, WA Pull-A-Part. Right now they have three T4wd in stock, still mostly complete.

I have been debating back and fourth to either get an '85 or newer car to do the engine swap, or the just swap out my front and rear diffs on my '84 to get the lower 4.1:1 final drive. But after about 6 months of searching I came across this new arrival and got the trans and diff for my '84. This way I will have the best of both models, the inclinometer, and the lower final drive. And that will give me a spare trans too.

[gatemaster]

so the 85 and newer models have the 4.11 ratio? And what do the others have? Do you guys have any updates on your projects?

[SynthDesign]

I think April 85 and before have a 3.73:1 final ratio. May 85 and later 4.11:1. it's posted somewhere on the forum I sure if you search.

I'm in limbo till I get my bigbore motor into my daily driver. Should be any time now but I keep running into setbacks. Gotta have something to drive everyday before I finish the play/rally car.

The only thing I still really need to figure out soon , Petros is kinda waiting on, is the exhaust header. The gas tank looks likes it's darn near worked out.
And wiring? Mega Squirt vs. custom harness vs. Phoenix-Tuning harness.

Basically a lot of time and money, but nothing compared to most other swaps.

[Petros]

And wiring? Mega Squirt vs. custom harness vs. Phoenix-Tuning harness.

Basically a lot of time and money, but nothing compared to most other swaps.

do not leave out the option of using a factory ECM and wiring from the original car. That would be the most drivable, likely the most economical, and the cheapest if you could snag the wiring, sensors and ECM one from a parts car, a Corolla GTS, or MR2 wiring and ECM should both work. That is my plan.

It might be possible to use the aftermarket stuff to teak more power out of it, but it already has plenty of power compared to the 3a engine (I doubt it would even be economically feasible to get a reliable 112-130 hp out of the 3a, which is what the stock 4age puts out). So why spend time and money sorting out and debugging an aftermarket ECM, and get poor driveablity and economy too?

[gatemaster]

I noticed that this conversion requires that a RWD intake manifold be used. I thought I remember reading that even with the RWD maifold that there may be a height issue, correct me if I am wrong.
While researching manifold materials and designs I came across a lot of info for building manifolds that would be perfect for the 4age conversion.
this link gives formulas to build the plenom in proper porportion to the intake runners. It also gives runner lengths depending where the power band is desired.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RYsglA ... ng&f=false

This link gives step by step instructions with illustrations. notice how easy these are to build.

http://sdsefi.com/techinta.htm

This link is for manifold materials

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/intakepartspage.html

[gatemaster]

I was wondering considering that the tercel transaxle is so weak, if anyone has looked into whether or not another transaxle could be swapped in, like a subaru for instance. I hope thats not blasmphemes. I just wondered if any of those might be stronger built and a possible option. Also what about converting the transaxle out for a toyota AWD or Corrola 4wd transaxle, I bellieve it came with a stronger engine hence the trans should also be stronger.

[Petros]

I do not think it is weak, it just wears out. the youngest Tercel 4wd trans you can find is over 20 years old, the parts wear out and fail. I am not sure I have actually seen them bundle up or fail due to overpowering them (of course that would be hard with 62 hp). I think the Tercel tranny will take more horsepower (not too much more of course), if it is in good condition and you do not abuse it (no "speed shifts" and other nonsense), use synthetic trans oil and take other precaustions.

The subaru and newer AWD trans have different configurations. In the subie the whole engine is ahead of the front axle, instead of on top as the Tercel and there is no way to make it work with the longer Toyota engine. I am not so sure the Subaru trans is any more durable. The AWD corollas and others use transverse engine installation, it is also much heavier. If you wanted to go transverse installation you might be able to make an all-trac transaxle work, but that would be a major change to the drive train, body, drive shaft, etc. i am not sure I would want to try that, better just to get a Corolla all-trac wagon as your project car, and drop in a 4age from an MR2, or from an '88 or later corolla GTS.

There is a tranny shop that will do a heavy duty overhaul to the Tercel 4wd trans, heat treating all the hard parts, and putting in heavy duty bearings. That might be a better way to go if you are worried about overpowering the tercel trans, everything bolts up the way it is supposed to. You could also run synthetic oil and a trans oil cooler.

[gatemaster]

Petros I was wondering more about the corolla 4wd transaxle that was available for a couple of years. i feel more assured about the tercel tranny from your post. I would never think of speed shifting even with 62hp. I am watching this tread because I have a very high interest in this conversion. I have worked on and studied engine design for a long time and know the 4age is a far supior engine in every way. what do you think of the manifold info I posted?

[Petros]

I am not aware of any corolla 4wd trans that has the engine installed convetionally, only the all-trac both Corolla, Camary and a few rare Celicas has the all-trac trans that put the engine in transversly.

It looks like WAY too much work to make an EFI manifold from scratch, a lot of parts to make and weld up. If I was building serious race car I would go that way, but not for a daily driver hot rod. I was thinking of trying to alter the stock manifold to make it lower on the side of the engine. We only need about 3/4 inch clearance at the front of the manifold, we can get as much as 1/2 inch from the mounts alone, and with a little bit of machining the manifold (perhaps put a small angle on the gasket face), rerouting the vac line manifold and a few other minor changes I think it can be done. Or just put a hood scoop, or a slight hump at least in the hood. All are far less work than making a manifold, and I suspect for street driving, the stock manifold would give the best all around drivablity and performance.