Clutch Chatter/Vibration

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Nimai_SR5Wagon
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Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by Nimai_SR5Wagon »

Hello everyone, (sorry in advance i realize i posted to the wrong thread - cant figure out how to move to "repair questions")

New member and first time poster.

Please read and respond with any feed back/thoughts on my situation

Back story:
Almost 4 years ago my 1984 4WD began to have a squeaky throw out bearing (could be heard during idle) as time went on it became a violent chatter/vibration when i pressed the clutch pedal in. I bought a clutch kit from NAPA (maybe Aisin its been a while) and replaced the clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing and resurfaced the flywheel .010". After install and getting everything back together the exact same chatter was still there in the same scenarios. I even went and got a new cable and also a new sector and paw for the pedal. Nothing changed.

I was starting a new job in a new town and left the Tercel back home. Just this new year i finally got my Tercel to my current residence to work on.

After getting the car home, here is where it stands:
Engine runs well, 300K miles, strong idle.
Transmission shifts smoothly through all gears (besides the chatter) and drives really well, issue is the clutch.

Things i have noticed, the clutch chatter is about half as likely to happen when pressing the pedal while moving (anything besides starting from a stop - 1st gear or reverse) and even less likely to happen at <1000 RPM but still happens 90% of the time while pressing the pedal in

Pressing the clutch pedal in while stopped (even sometimes while moving) it slows the engine down drastically, in first gear/reverse it can slow the engine down so much it stalls.

Besides the vibration i feel, it feels as if the throwout bearing is oscillating on the pressure plate, as if the fingers are being pressed in then pushed out quickly back and forth. Like the fork that holds the bearing isnt stable or strong.

I put the car on jack stands and started it, in neutral the wheels roll forward slowly, as if the drive train is being engaged, at higher RPMs wheels move faster.

I thought the wear on the pressure plate when i did the clutch job was concerning and may have evidence for diagnosis (see attachment below)
pressure plate wearl.jpg

MY PLAN MOVING FORWARD:

Ill pull the trans and look into the clutch again.

Maybe i didnt keep things as clean as they need to be, maybe i bolted the flywheel on not perfectly flat etc. I am going to replace everything this time, inspect/replace the pilot bearing, use a dial indicator to make sure all surfaces are flat. I give myself the benefit of the doubt because the EXACT same problem occurred after i did the clutch which makes me think the problem is separate from what i worked on.

It seems to me the throwout bearing is engaging the pressure plate too much, from the wear on the fingers and the way the engine wants to stall when i press the pedal in, the drive train engagement while in neutral etc. Something is obviously not right.

Please feel free to give me any feed back, some PM advice while i have the trans out etc.

Thank you very much in advance!

Best regards,

Nimai
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dlb
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by dlb »

When you disengage the clutch (ie step on the pedal), it's not just the throwout and pilot bearings that spin -- the input shaft bearing on the trans also spins then. That has my vote as the culprit. I've never replaced an ISB on a 4wd tercel but I believe there is an inner and an outer ISB.

Here is a thread that discusses the ISB: viewtopic.php?p=111690
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Nimai_SR5Wagon
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by Nimai_SR5Wagon »

This is a great help, and i appreciate the response. I will look to buy an outer and inner ISB.

I will post my progress and if i have any issues along the way.
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by dlb »

ps, xirdneh (who comments a bunch on the thread I linked to) has some tercel transmission vids on youtube that may be of help to you if you need to get into the trans. Robert Walker is his youtube username. Here is one of his vids. He talks about the ISB at the 3:00 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PKIJeMJfko
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by Petros »

I would guess that it is either the throw out bearing or the pilot bearing seizing up. I think however, that if only the pilot bearing is dragging, it would cause the drive wheels to move forward. I do not think that would be true of either the input shaft bearing or the T/O bearing. either way, the trans has to come out anyway, unfortunately. you should be able to turn them by hand and feel if they are bad.

did not the kit come with a new pilot bearing? sometimes the new parts are junk right out of the box. I find the kits especially frustrating, you order it because it is a quality AISIN clutch assembly, but it comes with Chinese made T/O and pilot bearings (I made the mistake of installing those once, had to replace them within 3-6 months...too noisy).

Buy replacement bearings that are made in USA or made in Japan, and they should be good quality you can trust. they do not cost much, not worth the risk to use anything other than good quality bearings, it is too big of a job to risk having to do over.

You usually will not do damage to drive it with a bad pilot or throw out bearing, but if it is the input bearing, it can disitergrate the fill the trans with metal shavings. best get to it ASAP.

Also, if the pilot bearing seizes up it could over head and damage the tip of the input shaft. it is easy to replace if necessary without have to take the trans apart (you remove a cover on the back side of the bell housing and it slips out). But you will have to get a good input shaft and bearing if you damage it. may be hard to find.

good luck.
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by NWMO »

Nimai,

dlb provided a link from my initial transmission failure that includes some good pics. I'm just now getting ready to repair the transmission.
When you disengage the clutch (ie step on the pedal), it's not just the throwout and pilot bearings that spin -- the input shaft bearing on the trans also spins then.
The above statement is not accurate in my opinion. I think what David is trying to share, is that when the engine is running, the transmission is in nuetral AND the clutch is "out", THEN the input shaft will spin. Most easily noticed in cold weather when you start the car with the clutch in and then release it with the trans in nuetral to warm up, the drag on the input shaft from spinning and moving cold oil will "drag" the engine down some. However, if the clutch pedal is depressed, there should be no power to the clutch and input shaft, thus the input shaft should not be spinning.

Like Peter, I expect your issue to be in the throw-out bearing, clutch fork or pilot bearing. I assume you got the small spring "clip" that holds the "throw-out bearing collar" back on, so the throw-out bearing pulls back with the fork?

Chris
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by Nimai_SR5Wagon »

you wrote:

"Just by the wear on the clutch diaphragm, unless that's common wear? "

it is difficult to tell in the picture how bad it is, but the tips at the center diaphragm spring is where the throw out bearing rides, and it is normal for there to be wear there. Usually just a shinny ring, not much in the way of wearing it away.

if the throw out bearing is worn out and causing extra drag there will be more wear there, I have heard that if you kept driving the throw out bearing will wear through the diaphragm spring, and you will not be able to disengage the clutch, I have never seen it, but heard of it happening when someone ignores the noisy clutch and just keep driving many miles that way. soon or later something will completely fail and it will not drive anymore, usually that means something very costly to replace has now broken as a result of the neglect.
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by dlb »

NWMO wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:45 am Nimai,

dlb provided a link from my initial transmission failure that includes some good pics. I'm just now getting ready to repair the transmission.
When you disengage the clutch (ie step on the pedal), it's not just the throwout and pilot bearings that spin -- the input shaft bearing on the trans also spins then.
The above statement is not accurate in my opinion. I think what David is trying to share, is that when the engine is running, the transmission is in nuetral AND the clutch is "out", THEN the input shaft will spin.
Eep, you're right Chris. Thanks for catching that. It's been a long time since I had a bad ISB so I was mixed up. Sorry for the confusion, Nimai -- a bad ISB makes noise when the clutch pedal is up, and goes away when you press it back down.
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by Nimai_SR5Wagon »

UPDATE:

I pulled the trans yesterday and found that the aisin clutch kit throw out bearing was bad, lots of play.

Possible the bearing was just bad from the beginning? I know people have said that they’ve received bad bearings too.

My concern is could there be something in the clutch assembly that is causing the bearings to go bad?

The fork and hub are worn on their mating surfaces, could that wear basically pull the throw out bearing away from the pressure plate too much causing inconsistencies in the engagement? Causing chatter? Ruining a bearing?

When I tug in the input shaft it has some play, but feels solid. The shaft spins smoothly, the pilot bearing from aisin felt good still. Is it worth it to check the ISB? I didn’t notice any metallic shavings in my gear oil when I drained the trans.

I bought OEM bearings from the megazip Japanese warehouse, those will be the replacements.

Any advice? Info? Things to look at while I got the trans out?


B3FB4DB5-7E5A-4168-B335-5B18A49C773D.jpeg

C1E2CFC1-7398-42C0-BD73-CB0907B421B5.jpeg

B9F4A2ED-367B-4226-A37A-971E4141FCC6.jpeg

79F13248-C432-48A0-B92D-B866240CE50E.jpeg

EA5B14B4-934A-430A-BD15-B3EBF7E9E877.jpeg

F6795077-42DD-4471-AFD7-B3B4F09955B6.jpeg
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Last edited by Nimai_SR5Wagon on Mon Mar 21, 2022 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by jimcrazy »

your pressure plate looks nasty,,i think you need a new kit the fingers are grooved like the bearing stopped spinning
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by Nimai_SR5Wagon »

I will get a new kit but I’m not certain that will fix my issue because that pressure plate is basically brand new. Read post for more detail.
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by jimcrazy »

i read the post,,if it was new and the throw out bearing stopped spinning for 10-15 seconds with the clutch pedal pushed down it would do that much damage to the pressure plate
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by Nimai_SR5Wagon »

The throwout bearing is definitely bad and caused damage to the pressure plate, i already have new OEM bearings, new fork and will get a new clutch kit, thats not really my concern.

My concern is more on why the TO bearing is going bad immediately, or was it just a bad bearing and a coincidence.

When i had initially changed the clutch 4 years ago for chatter and then got the exact same chatter when i replaced everything now I am concerned there is something happening in the clutch assembly that is ruining the bearings, or it was just a crazy coincidence that the "new" AISIN T/O bearing happened to be bad immediately in the exact same way.

I know on some vehicles there is a clearance tolerance on the clutch assembly, im wondering if by me taking of .010" from the flywheel along with the wear on the fork and hub, the pressure plate and T/O bearing are not interfacing correctly. I doubt ~.100" is going to cause a huge issue but i cant be sure.

If someone can help me find the tolerance for the Tercel clutch assembly, its not in my Haines manual and its not in a quick search on google.
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by NWMO »

Nimai,

Based on your provided pictures and the assumption you have pictured the clutch plate as it was oriented, it appears your clutch plate was installed “backwards”. The springs should face out and be visible under the fingers of the pressure plate based on FSM, page CL-12. It's been a while since I rebuilt my 4A, but I believe it is possible to install backwards. If not, those with more experience will clarify.


I know on some vehicles there is a clearance tolerance on the clutch assembly, im wondering if by me taking of .010" from the flywheel along with the wear on the fork and hub, the pressure plate and T/O bearing are not interfacing correctly. I doubt ~.100" is going to cause a huge issue but i cant be sure.


Also, I believe it is standard practice to "remove" the same thickness from the pressure plate mounting surface as is removed re-surfacing the flywheel. I believe the "step" depth is important and should be maintained (at least the fellow that re-surfaced my fly wheel "cut" the same off the P/P mounting surface on mine when I had it re-surfaced).
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Re: Clutch Chatter/Vibration

Post by Nimai_SR5Wagon »

NWMO, that’s some good information thanks for bringing up the FSM. I will definitely refer to it often.


This side of the clutch I had facing towards the transmission I assumed the engraving “T/M side” meant “transmission side” I don’t think it would even fit the other way.

I don’t understand why you would want to remove material from the pressure plate mounting surface when you resurface the flywheel, that concept doesn’t make sense to me.. if anything you’d want to add a shim right?

1504912D-093A-448A-841A-E8C3E3C180A9.jpeg
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