Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

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lbtercel
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My tercel:: 1988 Tercel 4wd wagon

Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by lbtercel »

Hello:

I have a 1988 Tercel 4WD.

I bought this car new in 1988 and am still driving it tho very little.

My car always starts up. It make take a bit but has not failed me until a couple weeks ago.

My car sat for almost four weeks without being started.

When I tried to start it, it would not start. The electrical worked but the engine would not fire up.

I called road side assist thinking it was out of gas because the battery wasn't dead.

The guy put gas in and I tried to start it and nothing.

The guy hooked it up to his charger and it still would not start. The battery was working because it was turning over just not igniting.

I suggested dropping a couple drops of gas in the carburator to prime it.

We did that and I pumped the gas and and it started right up then died just as quickly.

We tried it again, with me repeatedly pumping the gas and same result.

We determined as best we could that the gas was not getting to where it needed to be so either the lines were clogged, the filters were clogged and/or the fuel pump was kaput.

The fuel pump was replaced when I put the new used engine (40K miles) in it in 2007.

I don't drive it a lot so that engine has maybe 90K miles on it.

Someone told me that letting the car sit that long without driving it can cause the fuel lines and/or filters to clog. Then I read somewhere it can damage the fuel pump because the pressure inside becomes diminished.

Whatever it going on, it definitely seems like the gas is not making its way to the engine.

So all this is to ask what should I be charged for parts and labor to replace the fuel pump?

One quote is $230 for manual pump parts & labor, $260 for electric fuel pump parts and labor.

But that is after a diagnostic at $90.

He will do the fuel pump replace without doing the diagnostic but if that doesn't fix it I'm out $260 and still have a broken car.

How hard is it for mechanic to figure this out and other than the fuel filters, line and pump, what else could be causing this?

How much time does it take to replace a fuel pump, filters and check the lines and how much are parts?

How much should I pay if it's just clogged filters or fuel lines?

A diagnostic on this car would be manual since the car isn't a computer.

I'm looking for some guidance because I have a limited budget to fix this and before I call around to get quotes, I'd like to know what I'm looking at.

I moved three years ago and have not needed a mechanic so I will need to find someone who is fair, knows their stuff and is trustworthy that I can build a relationship with and have them exclusively work on my car when needed.

I've been fortunate to find good mechanics in other areas so I hope to find someone in this area.


Also

Someone suggested I add this if my car sits for more than a few days

Sea Foam Motor Treatment 16 oz

Cleans fuel injector & carburetor passageways
Cleans intake valves & chamber deposits
Lubricates upper cylinders
Works in crankcase oil to liquefy harmful residues & deposits
Stabilizes gas & diesel fuels up to 2 years
For any gas or diesel fuel blend
For all motor oils, conventional & synthetic



Any help you can give me I appreciate.

Thank you.
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dlb
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by dlb »

Welcome to the forum, Ibtercel.

I'm assuming you aren't interested in doing the work yourself? That would be my first suggestion. Even if you have little to no experience working on cars, replacing the fuel filters on these cars is literally a 5 minute job, and a $10 part. It's in the engine bay, just below where the steering linkage comes through. Remove the inlet and outlet hoses from the old filter (a little fuel will spill out, no big deal, use a rag to catch it), plug them onto the new filter (making sure the arrows indicating fuel flow are pointing the right way for each of the hoses). That's it.

If that doesn't fix it, I would try blowing through the fuel lines. You should be able to. If you're not able to, they're clogged and need to be blown out.

I'm not sure how to test the fuel pump but you can either search the forum for that, or maybe someone else will chime in with that info.

If you want to stick with going to a mechanic, don't get anyone to replace stuff without first doing diagnostics. Otherwise you will likely end up spending way more for things that didn't need replacing. Being an old, carbureted, and not fancy car, you will have a hard time finding trustworthy mechanics who are capable of working on it. If you do find one, stick with them. But my #1 suggestion is definitely to do it yourself.
lbtercel
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by lbtercel »

Thank you.

I am willing to try this.

I have no clue where to look for the location of the fuel filters and fuel line.

Could someone post some pics with diagram arrows?

Exactly what part would I need to order for the filters - is there one filter or two filters?

What tools would I need to do this?

And what can I use to blow out the fuel line? I don't have an air compressor.

I was watching a carb video and in the comments the OP noted another issue is the fuel line develops micro cracks and leaks - no gas and only air passes through. Is that and easy fix?
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dlb
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by dlb »

Don't worry about cracked lines, those are not common. Try the fuel filter first.

It's located in this general area:

enginebay472.jpg

and looks like this:

external-content.duckduckgo.com.jpg

Here is the only weird detail about fuel filters: when you buy one, tell the person at the parts store your car is a 1986, not an 1988. The reason for this is Toyota made two completely different versions of the Tercel at the same time during '87 and '88, and a lot of parts systems don't have the '87 and '88 wagons in their system. FYI, your car is part of the '83-'88, second generation of Tercel. So yeah, ask for a fuel filter for an '86 tercel.

You will just need small pliers and a rag to replace the filter. Use the pliers to loosen the hose clamps and move them back, then pull the rubber hoses off the old filter. You can either do one hose at a time to make sure you put the correct hose on the correct nipple of the filter, or you can just look at the arrows on the top of the filter. The arrows indicate the flow of fuel from the tank to the engine.

Yes, you would need compressed air to blow out the fuel lines but again, don't worry about that yet. A clogged fuel filter is the most likely, cheapest, and easiest culprit here.
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lbtercel
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by lbtercel »

Thank you for the info and pics..

I ran across the parts issue when trying to replace a fan belt. We ended up having to measure it to find the correct one.

I will order the fuel filter for my same car - 1988 TOYOTA SW 4WD DELUXE - but change the year to 86.

This is what came up on the NAPA parts site when I put in my car as an 86. I believe my transmission is the auto F version because it was replaced the first year I owned the car while it was still under warranty and I remember something about a ford trans. My engine was replaced with a a Japanese AUC engine. SIs that comparable to a 3AC?

I will order this one if it is the correct one.

Should I order a couple of new clamps to be on the safe side?

And what are your thoughts on adding Sea Foam Motor treatment? It was recommended by a mechanic who said it's good to add if your car sits for extended periods of time. I also read an article that Techron fuel has a cleaning agent in it. I've not used that fuel because I typically fill up where the gas is least expensive. If it actually would make a difference I'd be willing to pay a bit more.


napa toyota fuel filter 2021-10-08 at 3.59.36 PM.png
Two filters came up. The other one is out of stock.


toyota fuel filterss 2021-10-08 at 4.40.50 PM.png
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Petros
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by Petros »

you can also use the fuel filter from a 1985 corolla, it is slightly larger but will fit okay. the new filter does not have to be an exact match, it just has to have the correct inlet/outlet size for the fuel line.

The fuel pump is fairly reliable, I would not assume the fuel pump has gone bad. on a car that sits, the fuel lines can dry out and crack, the fuel pump sucks air into the line, preventing fuel from getting pumped. i have seen this on several old TErcel4wd that have sat for several years without running. the diaphragm on the fuel pump can also dry out, crack and fail when it sits, but I have found that is less common on the many old Tercel4wd I have bought out of people's back yards.

Fuel lines very rarely get plugged up, never from just sitting. that is the last thing I would worry about, though anything is possible. take a look inside the fuel tank if nothing else works. sometimes rust and crude can build up and plug it up.

if you have determined it is not getting fuel to the carb (using starter spray, or dribbling some gasoline into the intake is a good way to test it), than it most likely is only a few items that can cause it. plugged fuel filter, plugged inlet screen, leaky fuel lines, or bad fuel pump.

the inlet screen is on the end of the fuel line inlet inside the fuel take. It can be inspected by unscrewing the hatch, and tank lid, under the carpet in the rear area. Use a flash light to look inside, use caution since the fuel vapors are very flammable. best do this inspection outside, or with the garage door wide open.

I would do a quick test to see if the fuel pump is working: run a separate fuel line (buy 4 ft from an auto parts store) from the inlet side of the fuel pump into a gasoline can, and try to start it to see if it will run from the gas can. you put it on the intake side of the fuel pump (the larger line that comes off the firewall, not the one going to the carburetor). if it runs this way, the fuel pump is good, and the problem is us stream of the pump, that means leaky fuel line, plugged filter or inlet screen. if it will not pump fuel from the gas can, than it is a bad pump. Doing this will isolate the problem, and prevent you from having to replace good parts.

doing these tests is fairly easy and you should be able to do it yourself (and save yourself a lot of costs). replacing the fuel pump is also easy, and not a bad first time DIY project. you will need a 12mm socket, extension, and a ratchet handle. and perhaps a pair of pliers to remove the fuel line clamps.

if you have bad/cracked/leaky fuel lines, those too are easy to replace with just a pair of pliers. New fuel line of the correct size is inexpensive and available at most auto parts stores. Usually if you carefully inspect the rubber fuel lines you can see cracks in them. They may not leak fuel, on the suction side of the pump fuel will not leak out.

Unless you have a mechanic familiar with a car this old that uses a carburetor and mechanical fuel pump I would stay away from most repair shops. they will charge you money not to fix it, while they experiment and learn about older systems on your car. not a good deal.

No exaggeration, it would likely take me 20 to 30 min to find the problem on your car, and perhaps 30 to 45 min more to fix it, if not less. A repair shop not familiar with the older systems on a car like this could charge you for many hours, and not be able to fix it. It is not usually worth most repair shops to learn about older systems because they rarely see them any more, and there is no place to plug in their analyzer to tell them what to replace...leaving them stumped. Learn about your car systems and DIY repair is usually the best options on a car like this, even if undesirable. Fortunately this car is fairly easy to work on, once you learn about it, compared to most newer cars.

Good luck.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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dlb
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by dlb »

lbtercel wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:44 pm
Should I order a couple of new clamps to be on the safe side?

And what are your thoughts on adding Sea Foam Motor treatment? It was recommended by a mechanic who said it's good to add if your car sits for extended periods of time. I also read an article that Techron fuel has a cleaning agent in it. I've not used that fuel because I typically fill up where the gas is least expensive. If it actually would make a difference I'd be willing to pay a bit more.
Any of those fuel filters will work. Like Petros mentioned, as long as the inlet and outlet ports are the same size as your current filter they will work fine.

No, no need for new clamps. The ones on the fuel pump are just little ones you squeeze with pliers to move them around. Nice and simple and reliable.

You can do a Seafoam treatment if you like but you likely won't notice any difference. 4 months isn't that long for a car to sit. I generally use Seafoam on cars that have been sitting for years, or have been neglected, eg never had the oil changed. When I have used it, I've added the specified amount to the engine oil, run it like that for 100 km or so, and then do an oil change. You can add it to the fuel tank too but I prefer the "squirt bottle of water in the air intake steam clean" method for cleaning combustion chambers. IMO, it's not necessary for your situation but won't do any harm if you want to try it.
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Mark
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by Mark »

Fuel pumps for our Tercels can sometimes be bought on Rockauto for as little as $10, but I think the cheapest one on there right now is about $22 US. Most are in the $40 range. It takes about half an hour to replace one. They do sometimes suddenly fail without warning. My '81 Tercel was driving fine until the engine suddenly died as I was cruising up a hill. I did what you did and sprayed something flammable down the carb (in my case, carb cleaner) and the engine started and then died soon after. If I continually sprayed that stuff into the carb, I could get the engine to run longer, but it convinced me that it was a fuel delivery issue. I replaced the pump and then everything ran fine again. I agree that a car sitting for a few weeks is no big deal. I used to work on a ship and would be away for several months. The whole time my Tercels sat without running. When I came back, they started and ran fine. The problem is if they sit for several years, then the fuel goes bad, but probably still won't clog anything. In your case I suspect the fuel pump. Here's the instructions from the factory service manual on how to remove the fuel pump:
fuel pump.jpg
That's seriously all it says, although that's really all there is to it. Unlike with many fuel-injected cars with electric fuel pumps, you don't have to remove the fuel tank to get at the pump since these mechanical pumps are mounted to the engine.
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Mark
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by Mark »

By the way, I'm not sure what an AUC engine is. When I searched online I mostly got the engine code for a 1.0l VW engine. I doubt they'd install anything too exotic in the Tercel wagons. The idea of a Ford trans seems weird too. The automatics in the Tercel wagons had an A55 (2wd) or A55F (4WD) transmission.
lbtercel
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by lbtercel »

The engine I have is a used one shipped from Japan. At the time I worked for an automotive related company with several mechanics who walked me thru how to find and buy the engine and who ordered all the parts to replace and install as well.

The AUC may simply be a designation for an engine that was made exclusively for the Japanese market (?) but that is the lettering on the engine and def not a VW engine as VW was one of our clients.

As for the Ford trans, my car went to a Toyota dealer to replace the trans while still under warranty. I don't know why I recall Ford having something to do with the new trans that was put in. I could be mistaken. Maybe thinking about the Volvo wagon I owned before I bought the Tercel.

I am the single owner of this car. It's been the only car I have owned for 33 years.
lbtercel
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by lbtercel »

Thank you for all the info and advice.

Going to order the fuel filter from NAPA.

What size fuel line hose do I get to test the fuel pump (per suggestion above)?

They also have this manual fuel pump.

There are two line connectors on the bottom - are those the in/out take connectors? And what is that third one midway up on the side?

I'm thinking of buying this just to have as a spare part backup if I don't have to replace the fuel pump.

I read about how to check the fuel tank for blockage and that freaks me out somewhat because it also said be extra cautious because of the fumes and potential for blowing up yourself and the car. :shock:



toyota manual fuel pump.png
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by Petros »

that seems a bit high for a fuel pump, but if it is made in Japan, may be worth it. I would hold off if it is made in china, may work okay but at that price not worth it (I bought one a Chinese made one locally because i was in a bind for one in a hurry, it started leaking fuel all over after only a year). the picture is up side down BTW, not looking like the seller knows much about it.

I do not recall the fuel line size, either 3mm or 4mm (it is the inside dia of the fuel line). take a short peice to the auto parts store off your engine to compare the size. BTW, there is a return line that is smaller than the supply line, make sure you get the larger one. that would be the inlet from the fuel tank side.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Re: Fuel Pump, Filters, Lines Repair Costs

Post by xirdneh »

You can test a fuel pump while it’s in car. Disconnect the hose that goes to carb and replace with a clear plastic hose and run hose into a container of some sort. Crank engine and see if it pumps fuel into container. Or have someone watch the hose see if gas moves thru it
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
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