Newbie

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Krytios
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:57 pm
My tercel:: 1985 Hatch, no mods
Location: Arkansas, USA

Newbie

Post by Krytios » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:17 pm

So I am new here, I just purchased an 85 Tercel, it isn't a wagon nor is it an manual or awd so I may be in the wrong place. But this forum seemed to be the only place to find information about the car so here I am.

I have been doing some searching through posts and the popular topic seemed to be a 4AGE swap. Before I queue the inevitable "just search" I figured I would state what I am curious about.

Is there a way to swap to a manual trans while retaining FWD only? And with the engine being mounted longitudinal, do I need to source a RWD only 4age or could I use one out of say an AW11? I figure they would be mostly the same, with maybe a differently shaped oil pan. If possible, could I switch to a much more powerful 4age like a silvertop or a blacktop and change the layout to transverse?

What I would like to do is take the 3ac out and swap it with an old 4age just to get it running and driving around before I attempted an "power goals" persay. With a stock AW11 engine it'll still make double the horsepower of a 3ac anyways. I want to manual swap it, mainly for the two extra gears for fuel mileage. In stock trim a 4age should still get 30+ mpg even with doubling the horsepower. I'm just not sure if anyone has attempted this or cared to. Of course as soon as this post is done I'm off to the search bar and I'm going to read every post that even mentions the words "engine swap." My reasoning for wanting to keep it FWD is purely for weight savings. I'm aiming for a sub 2,000 lbs car with 200hp which with a 4age should barely break stock power levels depending on which version I get. Basically just something that I can daily and still is quick enough to be fun.

My 3ac is puking oil everywhere and I have 12 other vehicles so having one go under the knife isn't a big deal. I've owned AW11's and currently own a few Celica's so I'm definitely a Toyota fan.

Anyways, here's my introduction and I'm off to read search results.

Krytios
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:57 pm
My tercel:: 1985 Hatch, no mods
Location: Arkansas, USA

Re: Newbie

Post by Krytios » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:26 pm

Definitely pouring over Larry's thread lol

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Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 10887
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Newbie

Post by Petros » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:13 am

welcome to the forum Krytios,

you are perfectly welcome here with your fwd Tercel, must of that car is common to the 4wd model, and not likely you would find anywhere else with info on your proposed project. where are you located?

Several things come to mind: first, why bother changing both the engine and the trans (and all the associated changes)? those fwd cars are not particularly valuable, seems it would be better to buy one with a 5 speed trans already installed. consider there are a number of changes, shift linkage, clutch pedal, some wiring differences, possibly differences in the floor tunnel. It can be done, but at what effort? it would be best to find a complete car for parts, to make sure you get everything that is different. but if you find a complete car, why swap it out? Ideal I think would be to find one in someone's back yard with a blown engine, with the 5 speed manual trans, and decent body and interior. Really, it would save you a lot of hassle and unnecessary work to find and buy the car you want ready to go.

This was toyotas entry level car, and they never supported performance options, or after market parts because Toyota did not want that kind of image for this car. You can find a similar age Civic or first gen CRX that is lighter, with lots of performance parts, and lots of engine options for it too, with much less do-it-self performance up grades/speical parts, etc. to make it all work. Again, why bother with the Tercel? At least with the 4wd wagon, you have the 4wd feature not available on other cars from that time.

if you are resolved to do it anyway, there are several options for you. Yes, the MR2 transverse version of the 4age would work, some have fit into the Tercel by changing the oil pan, water pump housing, engine mounts, and a few other items from the 3ac configured for longitudinal installation. You can also fit a 4afe, less hp than the 4age, still more hp than 3ac, and much higher torque than the 3ac, plus excellent economy, and the crank has the six bolt flywheel flange so it will just bolt up without making a custom flywheel. Either engine means adapting it for EFI, and all that requires (high pressure fuel system, wiring, ECM, etc).

But you know, Toyota did make a light FWD hatch back with a 4age engine already installed. A rather nicely done little rocket of a car, I think imported in 1987 and 1988, called a "Corolla FX-16 GTS". I have seen quite a few around, kind of rare now, but it is ready to go for your intend up grade to the FWD Tercel. attached is a picture. I have seen them go fairly cheap becuase most people are not familar with them and there does not seem to be any collector value. I almost bought one for $700 a bit road weary and rough, but ready to go. I could have driven it home. It is rather nicely trimmed out too. Up graded seats and instrument cluster, most I think had alloy wheels, and some other nice trim upgrades.

here is one for sale for $700, but needs engine work. https://offerup.com/item/detail/247512239/
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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splatterdog
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Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:26 am
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Newbie

Post by splatterdog » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:15 pm

Petros- another car with that engine was the Chevy Nova twin cam. Only saw one ever but It was every bit as zippy as the same vintage Camaro RS I drove the same day.
http://www.curbsideclassic.com/curbside ... chevrolet/

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Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 10887
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Newbie

Post by Petros » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:56 pm

there is also the GTS corolla, still a few around in the FWD layout (1988 and later). the RWD earlier GTS is rather difficult to find. Poor branding and marketing of the best corolla ever made. It was loaded with all kinds of advanced engineering, 4 wheel disk brakes, IRS suspension, Limited slip diff, the 4age twin cam engine.

Sales were weak because it cost several thousands more than the baseline Corolla, and appeared identical to the SR5 trim up grade. The only external differences, besides the wheel style, is the "GTS" decal on the side panel. Now it is the most sought after corolla model.

I wonder what marketing genius thought making a car that costs 25 percent more look identical to the lower line models would sell more of the high end cars. Toyota has come a long way from the early days, now they have some very much performance oriented models, but back than they seemed afraid to promote the nicely done performance up grades and features. Their engineering department was ahead of their marketing department (usually it is the other way around, the conservative engineers are scrambling to meet the marketing department claims). disappointing lack luster sales were the result.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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LowBuckCanuck
Top Notch Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:32 am
My tercel:: 1986 DLX 4wd Wagon "Jenny"

Re: Newbie

Post by LowBuckCanuck » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:02 pm

Krytios wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:17 pm
So I am new here, I just purchased an 85 Tercel, it isn't a wagon nor is it an manual or awd so I may be in the wrong place. But this forum seemed to be the only place to find information about the car so here I am.

I have been doing some searching through posts and the popular topic seemed to be a 4AGE swap. Before I queue the inevitable "just search" I figured I would state what I am curious about.

Is there a way to swap to a manual trans while retaining FWD only? And with the engine being mounted longitudinal, do I need to source a RWD only 4age or could I use one out of say an AW11? I figure they would be mostly the same, with maybe a differently shaped oil pan. If possible, could I switch to a much more powerful 4age like a silvertop or a blacktop and change the layout to transverse?

What I would like to do is take the 3ac out and swap it with an old 4age just to get it running and driving around before I attempted an "power goals" persay. With a stock AW11 engine it'll still make double the horsepower of a 3ac anyways. I want to manual swap it, mainly for the two extra gears for fuel mileage. In stock trim a 4age should still get 30+ mpg even with doubling the horsepower. I'm just not sure if anyone has attempted this or cared to. Of course as soon as this post is done I'm off to the search bar and I'm going to read every post that even mentions the words "engine swap." My reasoning for wanting to keep it FWD is purely for weight savings. I'm aiming for a sub 2,000 lbs car with 200hp which with a 4age should barely break stock power levels depending on which version I get. Basically just something that I can daily and still is quick enough to be fun.

My 3ac is puking oil everywhere and I have 12 other vehicles so having one go under the knife isn't a big deal. I've owned AW11's and currently own a few Celica's so I'm definitely a Toyota fan.

Anyways, here's my introduction and I'm off to read search results.
Something nifty you could try if you feel up to a challenge would be to swap the 2zz-fe engine and 6 speed transmission from a matrix/corolla XRS. It is a transverse engine/transmission and I have no idea if it would fit, but the 1zz-fe in my matrix is a very compact engine. It makes 180 hp stock. Sorry if this isn't at all helpful, but now you've got me thinking...

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Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 10887
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Newbie

Post by Petros » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:16 pm

that 1 and 2zz engine is one of the best 4 cyl engines made, it was designed by Yamaha for toyota. it is all aluminum, so it might even be lighter than a cast iron/alloy 4age, and more power.

getting that Matrix AWD drive train to work in Tercel would be a major undertaking. unless yout intent is to make an project "art" car, so you have something unique, hardly seems worth the monumental effort it would take. Though, it would save perhaps 700 lbs of weight, and you get much better visibility too over the AWD Matrix. And you would mostly be exempt from current emissions standards too, could teak it to make it a real hotrod.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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LowBuckCanuck
Top Notch Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:32 am
My tercel:: 1986 DLX 4wd Wagon "Jenny"

Re: Newbie

Post by LowBuckCanuck » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:30 pm

The Matrix AWD was never sold with a manual transmission, and was never sold with the 2zz. Which is a disappointment.

A tercel hatch with that 2zz though... That would be a rocket. There are some cool hop up parts for that engine/transmission. Most notably a supercharger and a TRD limited slip differential.

One itineration of the 2zz used in lotus sports cars made 260hp.

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Petros
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Posts: 10887
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Newbie

Post by Petros » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:27 pm

LowBuckCanuck wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:30 pm
The Matrix AWD was never sold with a manual transmission, and was never sold with the 2zz. Which is a disappointment.
the FWD matrix had manual transmissions available, and I thought the same drive train is in the Rav4, was that not available with a 5 speed?

The Lotus Elise has a Toyota engine, great little sports car. Lotus got smart and abandon English made engines.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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LowBuckCanuck
Top Notch Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:32 am
My tercel:: 1986 DLX 4wd Wagon "Jenny"

Re: Newbie

Post by LowBuckCanuck » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:35 pm

Petros wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:27 pm
LowBuckCanuck wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:30 pm
The Matrix AWD was never sold with a manual transmission, and was never sold with the 2zz. Which is a disappointment.
the FWD matrix had manual transmissions available, and I thought the same drive train is in the Rav4, was that not available with a 5 speed?

The Lotus Elise has a Toyota engine, great little sports car. Lotus got smart and abandon English made engines.
Only the 2wd 2nd gen rav4 used the 1zz-fe and corresponding transmission. Which is a disappointment.

The AWD system in the matrix is the type that is all electronic and only works below 30 km/hr. (I believe)

So it made sense with an automatic in the eyes of toyota.

I really wish there was a little mechanical lever below the shifter on my matrix, but alas, it is not a tercel.

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splatterdog
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Posts: 1472
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:26 am
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Newbie

Post by splatterdog » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:53 am

Most everyone asks if the T4 is awd. I reply no, it's way better than that. It doesn't have to think about putting power to the rears. If I ever got a vanity plate it might say 50-50.

Apparently levers are beyond the typical motorists wants/needs/capabilities..

The ECHO would have been good candidate for an awd wagon platform.

Krytios
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:57 pm
My tercel:: 1985 Hatch, no mods
Location: Arkansas, USA

Re: Newbie

Post by Krytios » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:52 pm

I have several options on the table, one of which is making the Tercel rwd only and using a rotary and a manual trans.

Most of this is just brainstorming and talking out the side of my neck, but I have two full 1st gen RX7's, one of which runs and drives, both of which have no titles or paperwork so I don't feel bad about gutting them. A rotary would limit my power goals as I would basically just leave it stock, but it would still double the HP of the tercel and bring the engine weight down to 250 lbs.

As far as getting a different car, if I could find an AE92 Corolla GT-S for under 3k, even with a blown engine, that was within 4 hours of my house, I'd get it.

I'm in Arkansas.

2zz would be amazing, but I would need the trans to back it up. I don't mind switching from a longitudinal engine to a transverse one, but the longitudinal definitely looks cooler.

Krytios
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:57 pm
My tercel:: 1985 Hatch, no mods
Location: Arkansas, USA

Re: Newbie

Post by Krytios » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:54 pm

There is a really clean looking GT-S in Washington for $1,500 (salvage title) but it would cost me almost as much as the car to ship it here. I don't even care about the salvage title. If I could get a Washington member to bring it to me I'd totally buy it lol. Just not worth paying 1k to ship it, I'd rather pay 4k and just import a perfect low mileage one from Japan

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LowBuckCanuck
Top Notch Member
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:32 am
My tercel:: 1986 DLX 4wd Wagon "Jenny"

Re: Newbie

Post by LowBuckCanuck » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:29 am

Whatever you decide to do, post lots of pictures.

The Professor
Top Notch Member
Posts: 408
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 6:38 pm
My tercel:: 1987 Tercel SR5 4WD wagon
Location: Western Washington
Contact:

Re: Newbie

Post by The Professor » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:37 am

Krytios wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:54 pm
There is a really clean looking GT-S in Washington for $1,500 (salvage title) but it would cost me almost as much as the car to ship it here. I don't even care about the salvage title. If I could get a Washington member to bring it to me I'd totally buy it lol. Just not worth paying 1k to ship it, I'd rather pay 4k and just import a perfect low mileage one from Japan
Send me a link.
1975 Subaru SuperStar wagon
1984 Subaru Turbo-Traction wagon
1984 Subaru Turbo-Traction hardtop
1987 Subaru RX 3-door
1987.5 Subaru RX 3-door
1987 Subaru RX Type-RA 3-door
1987 Toyota Tercel SR5 wagon
1999 Subaru Forester S
2002 Subaru WRX sedan

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