Peculiar engine knock due to lack of proper maintenance

[Aubrey Falconer]

Note to other tinkerers as inept as myself: I couldn't get the car to start after reassembling everything, so I finally tried offsetting the distributor gear one tooth counter clockwise - which did the trick. Seems that rotor should be near vertical when installing distributor for proper alignment.

Adjusted the valve clearance today as well as some other minor tuneup items, but clatter is still as bad as ever. The compression gauge I just bought has a faulty pressure hold valve, so it's impossible to read before it bleeds down (instantly)... Will get a different one, and report on results.

Next I'll drain the oil, drop the pan, and have a look at the rod bearings.

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions and support, this is an awesome forum!

[dlb]

when i remove the dizzy, i always take note of the position of the rotor (3:00, 4:00, etc) and aim for that when i put it back. you have to take in to account that as you slide it all the way in, it will turn a little because of the gear teeth so the final resting position is what you want to look at.

once you have it in place and get the car running, turning the dizzy cap clockwise advances the timing and counterclockwise retards it. conversely, if you find you're out a tooth you can turn the rotor clockwise to retard the timing and counterclockwise to advance it. so say you put the timing light on it and the closest you can get the timing to stock is 15* BTDC, that means you need to remove the dizzy and reinsert it with the rotor turned one more tooth clockwise. that would retard the timing and get you in the correct range. you probably know this now after your experience but it doesn't hurt to have a reference. when i haven't done it in a while i forget which way does what.

[Aubrey Falconer]

Got a better compression gauge today, and the numbers are far from encouraging:

#1
130 (This reading was low because of a weak battery, all other readings (including the "with oil" #1) were taken with jumpers attached from another car to ensure full motor speed)
170 (Second number in each series is the "with oil" value)
#2
149
161
#3
161
178
#4
133
144

I currently have sea foam soaking in each cylinder, and will suction the last 1/4 of the bottle through the pcv system the next time the motor runs.
I drained the oil, and it contained a fair amount of metal. I could see many very small flecks in the sunlight on the oil film covering my hands, and a magnet picked up some larger flecks from the drain bucket. I even gave myself a metal splinter washing my hands off afterwards - it was quite thin and perhaps 1/8" long.

Am currently working to get to the rod bearings, but have been held up by the forward engine mounts while trying to drop the cross member. Sorry for asking such a ridiculous question, but how do you get the motor out of the mounts when their bolt studs both angle in to the motor against each other? Is one supposed to somehow remove the nuts from the frame facing side of the mounts as well as from the motor facing side?

[dlb]

the compression #s indicate that your rings are ok. i would check the #1 cylinder w/o oil again just to see but i imagine it's fine. it looks like #4 is a little low compared to the others, probably an exhaust valve, but nothing dire. i'm not sure what would be causing all the ugliness in the cylinders then--might try a catch can on your PCV valve going from the top of the valve cover to the base of the carb, right between the valve cover and carb. the PCV system can spit lots of gunk into the combustion chambers but besides that, i'm not sure.

i can't remember about the mounts, my buddy helped me with my engine swap long ago. i think you're on the right track with removing the frame-side mount bolts though.

[Petros]

since the mounts are rubber, if you jack the engine up with the top nut reoved, help it with a pry bar, the stud on the mount will pop free. A bit of a pain, but it is always that way, even when removing an engine. You can also loosen the nut on the underside but it is more difficult to reach, you have to use a short open end wrench. I remove one top nut, and one lower nut on the other side, and wiggle the engine around as it is being lifted.

Sounds like you will need new bearings, likely rod bearings only (check no. 3 and 4 first). Mains are probably okay.

looks like your rings and valves are all good.

good luck.

[Aubrey Falconer]

I'm in! Everything got much easier when I lowered the engine and the cross member as far as I was comfortable doing so before attempting to separate them. Those 3 oil pan bolts over the differential were fun, I could only get to them with a 10mm wrench - 1/12 of a turn at a time...
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/m ... directlink

The bearings don't look good at all. Hopefully they were the source of the clatter, and replacing them will give this engine a new lease on life.

Here's two pictures of the lower #1 and #2 rod bearings, as well as the #2 main:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/z ... directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/r ... directlink

And here's their journals (the surface feels nearly perfectly smooth with my fingernail, not sure of a more scientific way to describe the etching depth):
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7 ... directlink

As bad as that main bearing looks, it seems like I will need to remove the cam and replace them all as well. Should I disconnect the engine from the transmission to do this, or should it be possible to work around the differential?

[Aubrey Falconer]

A donor car just showed up on Craigslist! 1983 Toyota Tercel - $300 (Coeur d Alene) - http://spokane.craigslist.org/cto/2524378708.html
"As is" in fair condition. Runs and is great on gas mileage. Has just been used for back and forth to work. Needs muffler, pops out of first gear sometimes, gas gauge broken, temperamental starting. The engine is in great shape, does not smoke and no oil or fluid leaks. 297412 miles.

Planning to check it out this evening, and if in appropriate condition, swap motors with my current SR5.
I will then be able to give the motor we have been discussing a proper rebuild, and swap it back in at some point down the road.

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions and input!
This forum has been a great resource, and I will be sure to stop by from time to time.
Your support was invaluable to help me build up enough confidence to tear into an engine.

[dlb]

just a quick note, do a compression test on the donor engine so you can be somewhat assured that all your work will not be for naught. while you have the engine out it would be a good time to take a look at your clutch and engine mounts, too.

good luck, let us know how the swap goes!

[Petros]

sounds like the donor car has trans issues and other problems. Do the compression check as suggested, and offer him $200. That is more than a wrecking yard would give him and that is all it is worth.

BTW, looks like you need new bearings for sure, the crank journals are scoured but can be polished with 800 grit wet and dry and work just fine. They can likely be used as is without issue, but I would try and polish out the fine lines and than install standard size bearings.

[squiggle]

quick question what oil were you using

[Aubrey Falconer]

Sorry, I don't know what oil the previous owner was using.

Donor car proved great on the compression check (first two cylinders were 150 and 160 dry), and ran fine. Transmission made alarming grinding noises and the clutch was weak, but I will also be able to make use of some other parts it contains such as the steering column, inclinometer, and (nearly perfect) plaid blue and white seats, so I figured it was worth it.

Had some fun adventures on the way home including a dead battery after trying to rescue some else who's car broke down and then trying to wave anyone else down after dark, and loosing the clutch on a steep hill near home and getting towed the rest of the way. Currently have the nice tercel's engine out, and am working on swapping the donor engine over.

https://picasaweb.google.com/aubreyfalc ... directlink

[dlb]

awesome! did you have help to hoist the engine out? it's SUCH a PITA, even with two people, to line everything up.

[Aubrey Falconer]

No help, but I went slowly and carefully and I think everything worked out ok.

I parked an offroad forklift that happened to be around with the carriage over the engine, then used a handheld cable puller to ease the engine up. The torque converter slid forward with the engine and then kicked sideways off the end of the transmission spline - wedging the engine against the front of the engine compartment, but I gained a 1/2" or so by loosening the AC radiator unit and adjusting the height of the transaxle, and then got the torque converter back on the spline as gently as I could. I don't think it caused any damage to the transmission or torque converter - but if there's anything I should check for, please let me know.

[Petros]

that makes a handy engine hoist, good to have one around. It that the 2wd in the picture?

Are you trying to save the engine or the trans? not likely you did any damage. check for bent parts, water pump, front pulley etc.

[dlb]

i love all the pics you take. they're worth thousands of words!

torque converter, so it must be an automatic. not many automatic T4s are on this board so maybe you will prove to be someone's hero sometime. how did you find driving it? petros and others have said they found the auto a little underpowered. i have heard that the 4WD is just as good in the snow though.

and congrats on the clinometer, it's my fave feature of our cars. here's a thread for wiring it up once you are ready for it:

https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php? ... eter#p7829

gtssportscoupe mentions removing the dash to ensure proper placement of the clinometer on the dash but i had no problems doing it with the dash intact. you must remove the instrument cluster (easy, just a bunch of philips screws) to wire it in and the glove box to reach the underside of the dash and tighten the clinometers mounting nuts. i put the car in 4WD just to watch that stupid icon light up.