Weber time!

[SpaceyPuppy]

Well, I know that everything in the Terc is going to cope with it, so I've decided I'm interested in a Weber carb install. I know the kit needed for it (Weber 32/36, Weber P.# K740), but I have got one question...

I've been reading up and, between trying to get the new fuel pump working (check my other thread if you haven't seen it already, that'll explain all), checking over everything else mechanically and everything's in decent order, and I've got the money here to go for a Weber carb, but seeing as I'm in Australia does that mean that I need to go with the DFEV instead of the DGEV (electric clutch models) as the throttle cabling is mirrored on the Right-Hand Drive models of the car? Because I am lead to understand that the F models of the carbs are mirrored, but I'm not sure as to whether that means literally the design is mirrored?

I'll admit the Weber is a bit more of a want than it is a necessity in my case as the stock carb is running VERY well, but it would be great to get a performance boost, and better fuel economy, in one small package of an upgrade. It's a bit of an oxymoron almost, performance upgrades usually don't = better fuel economy!

Thanks!

[dlb]

It's a bit of an oxymoron almost, performance upgrades usually don't = better fuel economy!

i'm no help for the RHD/weber question but wanted to mention that i bought my wife a '92 civic VX which averages over 17 km/L (over 40 mpg) yet is also incredibly sporty. i've heard the same thing about the previous generation of civics as well. it seems counter-intuitive but honda pulled off an amazing power/fuel economy balance with those cars.

[ARCHINSTL]

Why not just ask the Oz (or Kiwi) importer of Webers?
I installed a Weber 6 years ago and have been happy - the USA emissions systems drove me up a wall - until I'd had enough. Fortunately, in my state, emissions testing is no longer required for old crocks (defined as those built before 1996...).
Note that, for me at least, I saw no improvement in economy and any power increase was minimal - although there is a bit of a rush when the second barrel is engaged; that rush, of course, is pretty relative...
Tom M.

[Petros]

If your stock factory carb is working good I would stay with that. I have driven both factory and weber carbs on the Tercel, and I do not care for the weber.

It does increase power at the high end, but I suspect it is too large for this engine on the low end where it has no power and poor throttle response (below 3000 rpm). In heavy traffic like in driving in city traffic it is a real chore (a lot of heel-toe to keep the rpms high). It has very poor cold weather and high altitudes performance, cold starts require a long warm up time to avoid a flat spot, drive great once warm. Messing with the low speed jets may help this somewhat, but I also found that stop and go city driving economy was really poor (again could be a jetting issue with the one I drove). Highway economy was also a bit lower, 29 to 30 mpg vs. more typical 31-33 mpg. I do not think the small increase in power above 3000 rpm was worth the sacrifice.

Despite the complexity of the stock carb, it is highly refined and when working properly is reliable and has excellent drivablity. If you are willing to tinker around with the webber, trying different jets, fabbing your own throttle linkage, spacer, etc. you can likely get the weber to run better than just slapping one on, but I doubt you will ever improve the economy or have it behave as nicely on cold starts and at high attitude. of course if you never get very cold and have no mountain roads over about 3500 ft, these may not be an issue for you.

good luck

[teranfirbt]

The one you drove was probably jetted poorly.. Mine had a flat spot when it was super cold out (below freezing) if you tried to drive off immediately on start up, but otherwise ran like a champ all of the time. Driven conservatively in relatively mild traffic I averaged 31 mpg for an entire summer internship. Even hooning the crap out of it I was getting 28 mpg commuting ~1/4 city-3/4 fwy.

[dlb]

i agree with petros' statement of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" but i had very different experiences with my weber. i found it had vastly superior throttle response throughout the entire rpm range, got the same fuel economy, and i certainly didn't have to fiddle with any heel-toe throttle, ever. i don't recall anyone else on here mention any need for heel-toe driving either so that one is kind of puzzling.

what i don't like about the weber is

- the lack of cold running compensation. i live on the coast and the high humidity causes the weber to ice up for 5 min when temps are around freezing. not a big deal, but annoying.
- the lack of emissions equipment. i like to drive as clean as possible.
- the lack of a fuel level window. this makes setting the float level a real pain on the weber.
- the lack of info available on the weber. we are fortunate enough to have a the al25 factory service manual on this site and it explains the carb very well for the most part. i had a harder time finding some info for the weber, and some conflicting info on float level specs.

i think the weber is way more fun to drive because of it's power increase and maintain that i think it is the single cheapest, easiest mod that offers the greatest gain in performance. that's not super important to me though so i've since been happier sticking with the stock carb.

[teranfirbt]

Heel and toe is good for clutch, motor mount, and syncro life.

[Petros]

I pointed out that the jetting was suspect. Do any of you have recommendations for which jets to use on the weber with a 3ac engine? It would likely help both the low end and the economy.

I also need to adjust or repair the choke, which does not work at all. but that is just an annoying cold start issue. Goes away after several min.

I doubt any of you two have had to drive in really heavy traffic: I was driving through Phoenix at 5 pm on a Wednesday, heaviest traffic in the whole state, and had to make a number of interchanges in really heavy going. The lack of low end response was very frustrating when going from near idle to jumping a lane over when there was a small slot I had to get into to make the interchange. I had to hover a foot over the brake because the line of traffic i was in (slow stop and go), and the lane I needed to be in was moving faster with small gaps. If I just stomped on the throttle and changed lanes I would have caused a traffic jam if not an accident. "heel-toe" is an advanced driving method that got me through it: one foot on the brake lightly, and keeping the rpms above 3000 rpm (with lots of clutch slipping) to make my way through it. Not recommended unless it is second nature to how you use the clutch/brake/throttle. I learned to drive in heavy Los Angeles traffic (in a manual transmission car), so I was not intimidated, just not happy with the weber. The car was full of luggage and cargo, so that did not help the acceleration either.

[dlb]

i think i remember someone on here recently reporting that weber told them the stock 32/36 DGEV jets are suitable from sea level to 3000 ft.

that sounds like a problem unique to that particular carb since you are certainly not the first to drive with a weber in heavy traffic, yet no one else has mentioned requiring such "advanced driving technique". i can't imagine webers being so popular with so many tercel owners if everyone had to put up with that issue.

while i rarely have to endure hours upon hours of gridlock, i did experience some of it while i had the weber in my first terc, and had zero issues. i drove it like a normal car.

[Petros]

after drive North up out of Pheonix that day we climbed to well above 4000 ft, and and spent the next 24 hours drive above about 5,000 ft. We spend the day in Flagstaff (6,800 ft above sea level). and did not get below about 4000 ft until late on Thursday afternoon. We were visiting a friend in Flagstaff for the evening and for breakfast, than left for the Los Anglese area late that day. We got the worst economy of the trip on that tank. About 22 mpg, other legs of the journey gave us as high as 30 mpg. It was rather cold that morning in Flagstaff too, not having the choke working was a real chore until it warmed up.

All I have to say after driving the weber 4000 miles in a Tercel4wd, I am not impressed.

[Petros]

So what jets do you all recommend for the weber?

[SpaceyPuppy]

Despite the complexity of the stock carb, it is highly refined and when working properly is reliable and has excellent drivablity.

You're exactly right. To update, today I had the day at home so made some well progress on getting it going. In fact, I've fixed the fuel pump in it (gone back to the mechanical one after all the trouble of looking at the electrical one, working MUCH better) and it now is idling extremely well, in fact better than it probably ever has.
It needs a new radiator temperature sensor as the fans didn't engage to cool it, so for the moment I've just got the fans running all the time while I wait for a replacement to come in the mail. Exciting times ahead!

Why not just ask the Oz (or Kiwi) importer of Webers?

Good idea!! Not sure why I didn't think of that. There's a few distributors in Australia after doing a google search but I can't seem to pinpoint one national importer of them so to speak.. I might have to ring Autobarn or Supercheap Auto to see what they can do for me maybe.

I can't imagine webers being so popular with so many tercel owners if everyone had to put up with that issue.

I agree with this. I also don't have to worry about extreme cold as, where I live, short of the middle of winter it never drops below about 10ºC(that's 50º for you fahrenheit-ians) and the biggest hill in the town is probably about 10m/30ft MAX. Exciting town... :\

So, I'm definitely going to keep the Weber in mind but I've decided that yes, maybe it's best for me to just get familiar with how it drives first (this will be my first car + ...it's a tercel... need I say more?) then decide if the extra performance behind the Weber is needed. I've given the current factory carb a good cleaning up and it's really running quite well.

Thanks again everyone!

[teranfirbt]

So what jets do you all recommend for the weber?

You'll have to ask GotToyota? since I sold mine to him. I took a similar (less trafficy) trip through Flagstaff last summer, didn't have much power and MPG dropped to ~24 on the climb, but it responded ok. My bet is yours needed different emulsion tubes, those are generally what changes high vs. low RPM running conditions. I'll try and remember to dig up some more info about them when I got home from work today.

[Petros]

There is a weber carb install thread, perhaps someone that has sorted out the jets for their project should list what they have installed for everyone's benefit on that thread, or even start a new "jetting the weber carb for the 3ac" thread.

[dlb]

from my previous post above:

i think i remember someone on here recently reporting that weber told them the stock 32/36 DGEV jets are suitable from sea level to 3000 ft.

*edit* just found this post by deejay but the whole thread is pretty relevant.

https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php? ... =15#p46390