Timing issue

[Mark]

I'll start a new thread rather than continuing to clog up the starter bolt thread. So I removed my distributor (after marking the body and rotor positions) to change the o-ring. After replacing it (lined up where it used to be), I checked the timing. I disconnected and plugged the vacuum hose shown in the manual and put the transmission (auto) in "drive". The timing showed over 20 degrees BTDC. I rotated the distributor as far as it would go, but the lowest I could get was 20 degrees BTDC. When I reconnected the vacuum hose, there was no change. When I had the distributor out I checked the diaphragm by sucking on the hoses and the mechanism moved. The centrifugal assembly seemed to be fine (I could hear a faint "clack" noise when I rotated the rotor). I used some silicone spray on the mechanism anyways. The obvious answer is that the timing belt is a tooth or so off, but then wouldn't the car idle or drive noticeably rough? Am I missing something obvious?

[Mark]

I just found a guide in the "repair guides" section of this forum. I'll try to adjust the timing from scratch tomorrow.

[Petros]

sounds like you are a gear tooth off, check that first. than check the timing belt by just removing the upper timing belt cover and than move the crank to TDC. I can run okay with the timing belt off a tooth, but it will get poor fuel economy.

If your vac diaphragm is good than you might see if you have vacuum on the line to the distributor, might be a leak somewhere in the line, or it is not connected to the proper location at the other end.

[dlb]

WARNING - DO NOT SET THE TIMING WITH THE CAR IN 'DRIVE.' YOU COULD RUN YOURSELF OVER. PUT IT IN PARK OR NEUTRAL.

now that that's out of the way, i agree with petros. before going from scratch, try pulling the dizzy and just turn the rotor one tooth clockwise to retard the timing to the correct range.

if your vacuum advance diaphragms both hold vacuum and the advance mechanism in the dizzy is fine, you must have some vacuum lines routed incorrectly. follow the vacuum diagram on the underside of your hood and make sure you have manifold vac going to the innermost advance port and ported vac doing to the outermost advance port. when you have them hook them up correctly, you should see the manifold vac-to-innermost port advance the timing at idle by 8*.

[Mark]

I only put it in drive because that's what the manual (Hanes? Chiltons?) said to do for an automatic. I assume it's because of the reduced rpm. This afternoon I'm going to start by checking the timing belt upper pulley mark to see if it matches the timing marks on the lower timing cover at TDC.

[dlb]

I only put it in drive because that's what the manual (Hanes? Chiltons?) said to do for an automatic. I assume it's because of the reduced rpm.

if the transmission throttle linkage is set correctly, the revs should only increase by 50-100 rpm when you put it in park or neutral so that would have no noticeable effect on timing. plus it's a hell of a lot safer. even with the park brake on, the car can still pull forward. i equate it to going under a car that's jacked up but has not stands to support it. don't chance it.

i'm going OT again but since it came up: the trans throttle linkage is easy to check and set. it's covered on page 373 (AT-5) of the FSM if you're interested. you have to get your face right underneath the trans and clean all the grime and crap off to see the linkage pointer and mark on the trans but once you do it is obvious.

[Mark]

So I've spent the last few hours trying to set the timing and so far, no luck. I moved the pulley to TDC (verified by removing #1 spark plug). I then removed the distributor and made sure that the pin and the mark on the shafts were aligned I replaced the distributor and made sure that the rotor was pointing at the #1 lead. I started it up and adjusted the timing for 5 degrees, 10 degrees and each time I drove it to test it, I had a hard time going over 20 km/hr. There was almost no power. When I unplugged one of the side hoses from the distributor diaphragm-thing (as shown in the manual), there was no change in the timing. When I unplugged the hose at the bottom of the diaphragm, the timing retarded about 15 degrees. I know people might say I have a vacuum issue, but it was running great before yesterday and nothing but removing the distributor has changed. I guess I'll start again in the morning and see if I can get it right within the next few weeks.

[dlb]

i think it's one of two things: first, are you sure the spark plug wires are in the right order, both at at the plug end and at the dizzy end? second, your vac advance hoses are routed incorrectly and that might cause your lack of power. that's easy to fix, just swap the hoses from the top to the bottom and vice versa. use a timing light to confirm that the timing advances 8* at idle when the innermost diaphragm is hooked up.

still need more details though because i'm unclear on what happened. is this right?

- when you put the dizzy in, you set the timing at 5* btdc initially.
- you test drove the car and had a hard time getting past 20 km/h.
- you adjusted the timing to 10* btdc and test drove the car again but still had trouble getting past 20 km/h.
- you unplugged the innermost vac advance hose but the timing did not retard.
- you unplugged the outermost vac advance hose and the timing retarded to 15* btdc?

i'm confused because if you were at 5* and and then 10* btdc, the only way the timing could jump up so high (it had to have been up near 30 * btdc if it retarded to 15* after unplugging the outermost advance diaphragm) would be if the timing belt is jumping teeth because it's worn or not tensioned correctly, or the dizzy was not put in correctly to start with and is still a tooth off, or the spring loaded advance mechanism is gummed up like i mentioned in the other thread.

keep looking, it will most likely be something simple that you have just overlooked.

[Petros]

check your valve timing at the front sprocket. Make sure you actually have the rotor pointing at the #1 lead, and it is all the way down, verify your distributor rotation direction and you have the wires in correctly (you might have #2 and 3 mixed around-I have done it- ). sounds like the vac advance is working properly, make sure the centrifugal advance is working properly (using the timing light and reving the engine is easiest way), and that you have it idling at the correct speed when you set the timing.

It is not that complicated, both the cam shaft and the distributor shaft have to be in the correct position for it to work correctly. Double check your procedures and your assumptions, do not take short cuts, every step in the procedure is necessary. I am sure once you figure it out you will likely "dope slap" yourself.

good luck

[Mark]

Well, while there was still an hour or so of daylight. I tried it again. I again removed the upper timing belt cover and verified that the arrow lined up in the small hole in the upper pulley when #1 Piston was a TDC. The lower (crankshaft) pulley was reading "zero" on the lower cover timing marks. So I assume that the timing belt placement is fine.
I then removed and replaced the distributor with the marks on the distributor shaft lined up as before. This time I couldn't get the timing below 20 degrees BTDC according to the light. There was still low power when I drove it. There was no "pinging" or knocking so I assumed that the timing was actually AFTER TDC. I got frustrated and retarded the timing as far as it would go using the light. It was well off the scale (probably about 50 degrees BTDC). It idled fine. I took it for a drive and everything seems back to normal. It accelerates smoothly and it feels like I have all 62 horsepower back. I didn't try any hard acceleration yet. How is it possible for the timing light to be flashing at the wrong time?
On a slightly different note, I'm a bit confused which vacuum hose I'm supposed to remove/replace to test the vacuum advance timing. The manual shows a picture of a 3-hose distributor, but it repeatedly says "3-AC" in brackets (page 227) . According to the vacuum diagrams, the 3-AC version has a 2-hose distributor. I have the 3-hose, which the manual says is the "Federal" version. In the vac diagrams, the Federal version matches up with where all my hoses go.

[Mark]

i'm confused because if you were at 5* and and then 10* btdc, the only way the timing could jump up so high (it had to have been up near 30 * btdc if it retarded to 15* after unplugging the outermost advance diaphragm)

Oops. I meant "advanced" (when I pulled the bottom distributor hose, the number went up to 15).

[dlb]

how old are your spark plug wires? old ones that are breaking down will give false timing light readings, which it sounds like you're getting. usually the light will only flash intermittently and irregularly when this is the case.

what does the vac diagram under your hood say? it should say if it's canadian 3a-c, federal, or whatever. if you have two ports on the inner advance diaphragm, disconnect and plug the hose from the one with the bigger hole. the one with the smaller hole goes to the HAC (high altitude compensation) which will not be activated since you live at sea level.

i'm confused because if you were at 5* and and then 10* btdc, the only way the timing could jump up so high (it had to have been up near 30 * btdc if it retarded to 15* after unplugging the outermost advance diaphragm)

Oops. I meant "advanced" (when I pulled the bottom distributor hose, the number went up to 15).

wait, the timing advanced when you unplugged the bottom hose? this is just getting weirder.

[Mark]

how old are your spark plug wires? old ones that are breaking down will give false timing light readings, which it sounds like you're getting. usually the light will only flash intermittently and irregularly when this is the case.

what does the vac diagram under your hood say? it should say if it's canadian 3a-c, federal, or whatever. if you have two ports on the inner advance diaphragm, disconnect and plug the hose from the one with the bigger hole. the one with the smaller hole goes to the HAC (high altitude compensation) which will not be activated since you live at sea level.

i'm confused because if you were at 5* and and then 10* btdc, the only way the timing could jump up so high (it had to have been up near 30 * btdc if it retarded to 15* after unplugging the outermost advance diaphragm)

Oops. I meant "advanced" (when I pulled the bottom distributor hose, the number went up to 15).

wait, the timing advanced when you unplugged the bottom hose? this is just getting weirder.

No, I'm just getting weirder. I keep remembering things backwards. I tried so many things I forgot what was what. I'll try this again. When I unplugged the bottom hose it RETARDED to below zero degrees. So when I plugged it back in, it ADVANCED about 15 degrees, like I assume it should.
My plug wires are about 2 years old, but if there was intermittent spark it just wouldn't flash occasionally right? When it did flash, it should be at the same time as the spark was sent. The vacuum diagram under the hood says: "3A-C, 4A-C, FED". The metal plate near the firewall says "Engine 3A-C".
My timing light is old (made in West Germany). I bought it from a second-hand store in an unopened package so it's never been used, but it's still old. I think I'll try renting one from Canadian Tire or somewhere and compare the results.
By the way, I think the reason the manual said to put the car in drive to check the timing is to drop the rpms well below 1000. The timing light instructions say that it can't function above 1200 rpms and even at slightly lower speeds, the flashing might be inaccurate.

[dlb]

No, I'm just getting weirder. I keep remembering things backwards. I tried so many things I forgot what was what. I'll try this again. When I unplugged the bottom hose it RETARDED to below zero degrees. So when I plugged it back in, it ADVANCED about 15 degrees, like I assume it should.

this gives me another theory: your vac advance hoses are hooked up incorrectly so when you disconnect and plug the hose shown in the FSM, the timing is still advanced by 15* since your outer advance port seems to be getting manifold vac. this means that if you set the timing to 5* BTDC while advanced, your actual baseline timing is 10* ATDC, which would run like shit, like you described.

this all leads to the same end though. you know your timing belt is correctly set so just confirm your vac lines are correctly routed and reset the timing following the procedure you already used. if, once you have your vac lines correctly routed, you find the dizzy is not in the correct range you will need to pull it and advance or retard it one tooth. not a big deal.

i can't wait to find out just what the cause of all this confusion is.

[Mark]

I triple-checked my hose routing and it's all fine. I even tried setting the timing by leaving the hoses plugged in. No matter what I did, when I set the timing to anywhere between 5 and 20 degrees BTDC, there was very little power leading me to believe the timing was actually after TDC. I'm still pretty sure it's a defective timing light issue since a car actually shouldn't run great with a timing of 40-50 degrees BTDC like mine is now doing.