Play upon acceleration/deceleration

[DanT]

83 4wd SR5 wagon. 240,000 miles. Numerous previous repairs.

There is play in the "system" when I accelerate/declerate. It does not feel as tight as it should. (I have an 85 and and an 83 and the 85 is much tighter.) I can feel it by driving on a flat road. Tap on the gas pedal/ let off/ push it down again. The car is not tight... there is play in the system.

I know the stabilizer bar bushings on the front are very loose and need to be replaced... the split 2-piece rubber bushings at the end of the bar where it connects to the lower control arms. I have been thinking that this fix will solve my problem... becasue the bushings ar not keeping the body tight with the front wheels upon acceleration... but wonder now if it is more likely to be something else (like play in front wheel drive shafts)?

Anyone fixed this one before or have a good idea on what is most likely causing this play in the system? Am I on the right track or not?

Also, I am planning to replace those bushings but cannot find them on line. I can find the bushings where the bar connects to the car, but not the ones for the ends of the bar to the lower control arms. Any leads where to find them new? ( I can pull them off of a parts car but not my first choice.)

Thanks.

Dan T

[ARCHINSTL]

Go to the OE and AM Parts Forum; I have a thread there on the front bushing sourcing and OE part numbers. Compare pricing (and availability) between Butler, Conicelli, and Village Toy dealers - and then your friendly local dealer...
Be sure to review the threads on control arm and sway bar work!
Tom M.

[xirdneh]

sounds like front axles to me

[dlb]

hey dan. is that your 83 in your profile pic? it's a beaut! i love the two-tone paint jobs.

you're on the right track but a few things: you'll need to be more specific about "play in the system," and your sway bar end bushings AND metal sleeve could very well need replacing but i don't think that's what is causing your problem.

first, by play do you mean there is a clunk when you suddenly tap or let up on the throttle? describe it. i think i know what you mean but the more info, the more specific we can get. if you do a search on here you will find lots of threads on doing the sway bar end bushings, and that they and the metal sleeves are crucial to the steering of this car. if you haven't looked at them recently and can be sure that they're good, take a look real soon. other members have had the ends of the sway bar snap while driving and it's a bad, bad thing. the sway bar end bushings and metal sleeve can only be purchased directly from toyota, and maybe from butler (forum member ARCHINSTL may have bought his from there, can't remember) and they are expensive. like, $150 for 4 rubber donuts and 2 little metal sleeves. ridiculous but necessary, and most other parts for these cars can usually be found quite cheap so don't sweat it.

back to the play you're talking about: lots of us have had similar problems with these cars. i had a similar issue and replaced a lot of my front end. i found the strut mounts were the culprits for me but others have found otherwise. check your tie rods by locking the steering, jacking up the front of the car, and then pull on the wheels from side to side. if there is any play there, as in you can shift the wheel more than 1/16th of an inch, you need new inner or outer tie rods. you can determine which ones you need to replace by looking at them when you perform the above test. whichever one is shifting is the culprit, though both can be bad too. next you can check ball joints by pulling on the same jacked up tire, this time from the top and bottom of the wheel. if the bottom of the wheel has play in it, replace the ball joint (these cars have only one per side, a lower one). i'm not sure how to test the strut mount besides removing the strut from the car and seeing if it wobbles around, which is what my old ones did. this isn't too hard to do but to remove the mounts from the strut you will require special spring compressors which you can probably rent from a shop. be VERY CAREFUL when working with compressed springs because if the compressors slip, the spring can do some serious damage to you. your play could be from bad engine mounts that allow the engine to twist a small amount. i don't think these are your problem but take a look and make sure they do not appear damaged. you can probably put a wood block on a jack, slide it under the front end of the trans, and jack it and the engine up a few inches to get a better look at the mounts.

so there. in addition to inspecting your sway bar end bushings, i suggest checking out the inner and outer tie rods, ball joints, strut mounts, and engine mounts. as xirdneh suggests, you could look at your CV's as well but i have found that they can have quite a bit of play (as determined by having the car in gear, spinning the wheel, and seeing how much the tire will rotate) and not cause any problems.

[ARCHINSTL]

I forgot to mention - I had a clunk on the right side and took a cue from another member about 5 years ago - turned out the two bolts holding the bottom of the strut to the knuckle were "not tight." I retorqued them and the clunk went away.
Note that some clunking can be present on just about any stick-shift car when suddenly removing the foot from the accelerator at speed; this is, of course, exacerbated by plain old tiredness in the suspension.
Tom M.

[DanT]

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

Yes, that yellow 83 SR5 in the picture, with 240k, is the car that I am working on. That car has a long story, so I will add that part at the end of the post... for anyone who is interested.

Back to the question at hand:

The car does not actually "clunk" when I suddenly tap on the throttle and let up... but it does sort of feel like that. There is too much slop somewhere. As long as I keep my foot on the gas after pressing down there is no problem. Wheels catch and car accelerates. But if I pop the gas back and forth it feels as if the momentum of the car body is sliding back and forth on some kind of a rack... as if the drive wheels are shifting from a forward to backward position under the body of the car each time... or something like that. My 85 that is mechanically very sound, but does not go out in salt, is much tighter than this.

1) I know that I need to replace the stabilizer bar "cushion" bushings at the ends. Have read the posts. Very, very helpful. I can see how to do that now. I have not found anything else yet that seems more likely to be the problem, but not convinced this is it yet either.

2) I know that I need to replace the driver's side outer tie rod end. (But I would not expect that part to control forward and backward motion due to acceleration? Would expect slop in side to side steering play... and this car does have manual steering... which I actually prefer.) Will fix this.

3) Ball joints are good.

4) I checked the play in the CVs and my 83 and the 85 both have about 7/8 inch of play... at the level of the wheel rim when rotating. The 85 does not have this problem so I think this must be the normal amout of play in the front axels. If anyone wants to check the play let me know what you get? (I have an extra set of axels if I need them.)

5) Engine mounts look good to me.

6) Strut mounts look good to me.

I know that I need to do the sway bar and tie rod end, so will start there. Have some other leads now... and will see what I can find after that.

Very much appreciate the help with this.

Dan T

PS:

I had an 83 yellow 4wd deluxe wagon as my first tercel many years ago. Only year they came out with yellow, and they did not make very many of them. Just loved that yellow 83. This 83 SR5 was a two-tone gold and brown when I bought it 14 years ago. Had the interior I wanted...and the clinometer! The plan from the start was to paint it yellow. I knew that was the only way I would ever get my yellow car back. (Has anybody ever seen a yellow t4 wagon? My original car is the only yellow wagon I have ever seen. Yellow is in the color charts for that year only, and I see them in the 83 ads, and I had one, so I know they existed somewhere. )

This SR5 has been driven through tons of upstate NY salt. (They have a salt mine 10 miles out of town and the highway department takes great liberties with spreading salt if there is even one cloud on the horizon.) The bottomside of the car and all of the wheel wells have been completely sealed with 1/4 inch of LeakStopper rubberized roof patching compound... along with roof patching cloth. No sheet metal is showing anywhere underneath.

Just finished the upper panel body work recently to bring the yellow back to where it was 14 year ago. That was a ton of work, but the body is ready for the show room again. Used Chassis Saver rust proof paint directly over the rust, then dolphin glaze to smooth out the panels, then high build primer, then yellow top coat.

I drove it through the salt and slush last winter with only the black patches of chassis saver with no top coat, so I know that Chassis Saver really works. You can paint it directly on top of the rust. Yes, the highway departments actually paint the bottomsides and frames of their salt trucks with this paint. That stuff is unbelievable. Decided to top coat the car again with the original yellow after that.

Check out this clean 83 with the same interior. That is what I am aiming for on the inside. Have interior parts from 3 cars so far and getting pretty close.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/353808/1983-toyota-tercel

[dlb]

your CV's sound normal, nothing alarming there. what i would do is do the sway bar bushings and tie rod since you know you need to do them anyway. while you have the stuff apart, i would actually remove the struts (3 small nuts up top in the engine bay, two big nuts/bolts down at the knuckle) so you can thoroughly inspect the strut mount. it's impossible to tell with it in place if it has play because the play will occur just between the part bolted to the top and the spring housing. also, you cannot generate enough force with the strut in place to check it. once you have the sway bar out it will only take another 5 minutes to remove the strut anyway.

i know how frustrating this mystery clunk can be. i was convinced it was in my CV's until i swapped them and found no change. boy, was i pissed.

the is an australian forum member, gmeddy i think his name is, and i believe he has a stock yellow terc. there's also homeskool who did an aftermarket bright yellow paint job on his, but i think that's it. def not very common.

great info on the rust protectant! you should post pics in the gallery of both your tercs and their bulletproof underbellies!

[DanT]

Very helpful. That movement could be coming from the struts... which is the location you mentioned caused the problem for you before. I will definitely check the struts when I get to there. Good to know how to do this. (I will be changing the stabilizer bar bushings, but I am not convinced that those bushings will solve the problem.)

Thanks.

Dan T

[Petros]

Usually if the cv joints are bad you get other symptom, shimmy at the wheel on acceleration, clunking in turns, etc. Most likly it is the sway bar mounts, either rear or front ones, at the place where the bar is mounted to the frame of the car. Could also be engine mounts, but you say they appear fine.

Another test you might do is on a straight road put it into 4wd and do the accle/decel the same way to see if it will jerk like that. If not, it means it is in the front suspention. When you unload the front by driving the rear wheels too, usually if it is in the forward drive train the problem lessens or goes away entirely.

Another quick fix you can try is cut large rubber washers out of 1/4" sheet rubber (side wall of an old tire also works), and install them under the large washer at the rear of the sway bar mount. If the donuts are bad it will compress them enough to take the slop out it, and you can test drive to verify it is donuts gone bad and squishy. I did that on mine and have been driving with them in for about 3 years now.

Nice looking car btw.

[DanT]

Petros,

Very helpful suggestion to test the 4wd to compare with fwd. Great suggestion. I am starting to rule out the cvs at this point. I have the interior out of the car right now, but will have it back together in a few days and will run this test. Should be very helpful in narrowing down the possibilities. Thanks very much.

Dan T

[DanT]

ARCHINSTL and others,

I am getting ready to install front and rear stabilizer bar bushings... and a tie rod end. It is obvious that the front stabilizer bushings are trashed... which I think is the main problem. There is a lot of space there, and obvious wear at the points where the lower control arm holes slide back and forth on the loose bushings (especially on the right side). I can see air space in the rear bushing also where the rear stabilizer bar attaches to the rear axle. (I had the car up on a lift with a mechanic and we looked at it together. I can lift the car up 18 inches off the floor in my garage, both front and rear at the same time, so can get around under the entire vehicle.)

Petros, I road tested the car in 2wd and 4wd as you suggested. The difference in the play did not feel very significant. About the same both ways. Maybe a little less play in 4wd.

ARCHINSTL, I read your extremely helpful posts on ordering the bushings from Butler and plan to place an order with them this week. I have the original Toyota shop manual for this vehicle, but it does not show part numbers anywhere in the book from what I can tell? Is there a link somewhere that would show these diagrams with part numbers? How did you figure them out?

I was able to follow all of the part numbers as I compared these posts with my shop manual. I just had one question after studying the rear stabilizer bar bushings.

OE Rear Suspension Bushing & Control Arm Numbers
https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6444

90385-11021.....Stabilizer bushings...(front of sway bar to bottom of "links")
90560-10275.....Spacer for above... (metal sleeve inside bushings)
48817-12010.....Cushion...(front of sway bar from "links" to body)

These first three parts appear to be the bushings that go into that little "wishbone" assembly that fastens both ends of the rear stabilizer bar to a small angular brackets on the body of the vehicle. My "wishbone" metal bolt assembly is very rusty and I am not sure I can re-use it... not sure if I can get the bolt on the end of the assembly off without cutting it or stripping it. Were you able to re-use your metal wishbone with these bushings?

A curious observation: I noticed an access hole on the frame behind the bolts for the lower control arm bushings to the frame... with a rubber cover on it. I do not see this access hole used in the manual to change the lower control arm bushing, but rather they just turn the bolt out and then torque it back in. I took the covers off and can see the threaded square nuts welded to the back sides of the frame. Anybody know why they need an access hole there? (Hmmm... maybe if the welded nut spins off you could add your own washer and nut on the back side and not have to toss the car away?)

It has been wonderful to get so much help with this. Thanks once again for your contributions.

Dan T

[DanT]

Forgot to mention that the rear shocks are shot on this vehicle also. But the front struts appear good. Weird thing is that I like the ride much better on the 83 over the 85 ... which has new monroe sensa-trac rear shocks in it... and new front struts... though I suspect one rear shock is bad as it is soft of the bounce test. The 85 rides like a boat. The 83 is much stiffer... which I like better.

I tested both cars with no shocks at all and the 83 is definitely much stiffer with a bounce test using rear spings only. Did they use stiffer springs in the rear end in 83 and 84? A previous owner pulled a camping trailer with this vehicle, so I wonder if they had stiffer springs installed.

That said, the ride is pretty close to what I want on the 83 already, even with bad shocks in the back, and I do not want to mess it up with new shocks. I was planning to put in a set of Monroe sensa-trac rear shocks... as I cannot see how this would mess it up... and might actually make the ride better.

Any suggestions for rear shocks would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Dan T

[ARCHINSTL]

Dan T -
Shocks - I went with KYB GR-2 for my usage. Some prefer KYB Gas-Adjust, though. I did a thread on this back in Sept-Oct of 2010 on sourcing and pricing. See https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php? ... cks#p42970

I don't have holes with access covers to view the captive nuts on the inside of the "frame rails" for the long bolts for the front lower control arms. I don't think anyone has mentioned this before. Perhaps someone replaced them by cutting the holes and then used some kind of cover? Seems odd.

Bushings - see the two attached photos of the wishbone links. They worked out OK for me. Despite the amount of rust shown on the nonthreaded portion, plenty of good metal was left. I also painted all removed parts of the whole rear end. Note that the washers used on the bushings are different - some have raised lips. I used PB Blaster (or Kroil-forget which) on the threaded stuff and was able to reuse all. If you have to use a Dremel to cut the nuts off the wishbone, any parts store (or Lowes/HD) will have them.

>> I also fixed the link at the END of your thread (it is one of those links that got garbled a while back). Good info. <<

Are you doing replacement of the bushings at the ends of the Panhard rod? The one that secures the rod to the body is "challenging" to install. Let me know and I'll do something on that. DO read the thread and pix I did in Repair Guides on the rod's attachment to the body for rust remediation in that box (with pix).

After you have raised the car by the rear axle, put jackstands under the body and carefully lower the axle - be observant so it doesn't go down too far and strain the brake lines and E-brake cables.

When you talk to Butler - ask for Dan Egan; he has been my go-to Parts guy for a few years and is very helpful. Tell him "Tom in St. Louis says 'Hi!'"; it won't get a discount, but building rapport is always important. I (and others) have spent quite a few bucks with Butler on our cars.
Tom M.

Left-click to enlarge pix.

[DanT]

Tom,

This is all extremely helpful. Thanks. I can see clearly how to deal with the wishbones now. Also very helpful to have a contact at Butler to work with on the bushings order.

I have studied the manual and can see how to do almost all of this now. The one place that still looks tricky to me is pressing the new lower control arem bushings in. (My lower control arm bushings do not look good.) I am not worried about getting the old ones out, but they use a SST in the manual to press the new ones in. Am I correct that I can use a 2x4 wooden block and hammer these new bushing in... or am I off base on that part?

The panhard bushings are ok on this car, so will not be messing with that part.

For shocks I also would find the smoother ride and less lateral bouncing of the KYB 343149 more important than understeer. Great to have the experience of the forum testing the equipment out there on the road.

Getting ready to take a wrench to these rusty bolts soon. If someone could let me know how to press the lateral control arm bushing in that would be fabulous.

Thanks again for the great help from this forum!

Dan T

[dlb]

dan, the control arm bushings are a pain to swap, or i found so anyway. getting the control arm out is easy but then you need to drill through the rubber of the old bushing until it's thoroughly shredded. then you can tap it out with a hammer and an appropriately sized metal cylinder. sounds easy but it's a surprising PITA. than you you need to use a vice and the same cylinder to press the new one in, which again sounds easy but can also be a PITA. i think i used a torch but can't remember why--i think it was on the control arm to expand it a bit and make putting the new one in easier. you could also put the new bushings in the freezer to shrink them (minimally) to achieve a similar effect. both my control arm bushings looked fine but i had already bought the new ones so i did one. it was way too much effort for something that really didn't need replacing so i left the other one and still have the spare new bushing.

spray the hell out of those rusty bolts with liquid wrench or PB blaster or something similar. they might surprise you and not be too bad. if not, you can always cut them then.