Overheated. Won't start. Fearing the worst. Please help...

[yotanewb]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the site. I've been reading since I got my '84 4wd last May, but have never posted. I just can't seem to find any topics relating to my problem and I'm a bit worried. I love this car more than I can describe efficiently and I refuse to give up on it. So I've decided it's time to post.

Here's the situation...

Earlier today I came home between errands, left the car running (expecting to get right back on the road), got distracted, and completely forgot about my baby running outside in below freezing weather. When I found her there were huge clouds of steam billowing out the hood and she was sputtering slow, delayed sputters. Barely alive.

So I ran to the car and turned it off as quickly as I could. Since it didn't actually die on it's own, I wasn't too worried. Unfortunately, I underestimated the torture I had put my baby through.

After sitting for a few hours, the car wouldn't start. I tried starter fluid. Pushed down a hill. And jump started.

All it does is turn over. It's the same sound she used to make whenever she'd feel like giving me a scare. But starting fluid always used to do it and now it won't.

The scariest part for me is the feeling I got when I tried to push start it. It normally fires right up on a good push but this time it felt like there was a lot more restriction when I popped the clutch and it just didn't respond as smoothly as it used to.

Since parking it, I've tried to start it quite a few times after trying a few small things like hose connections, carburetor, starter and the like. But it still does the same thing. I've checked the fluids and they all look good. Oil doesn't appear to have head gasket blood. It looks like the same car, but something is very different.

A few times it has felt and sounded like it's starting, but then comes to an abrupt halt and all electronics turn off. It feels like death.

Does anybody have any suggestions or ideas as to what might be the problem? I might be overreacting, but the combination of symptoms is scaring me as I research it and I can't find anything too relevant to the my specific scenario.

I'm fairly familiar with cars, so you don't have to use baby talk. But I will admit I haven't actually gone and bought new filters, plugs and fluids yet. But only because most are fairly new. Plus, the push start thing really scared me and I'm worried it's something much worse.

Anyways, sorry for the long post, but I wanted to be as detailed as possible. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks everyone!!

[ARCHINSTL]

Welcome to the Club!

I realize you wrote that you "checked the fluids," but - did you specifically check the radiator level? Clouds of steam usually indicate coolant leaks of some kind (which I'm sure you realize).
After loaning my almost-new '83 to my Beloved Sister, it wouldn't start. Discovered she ran it dry, which resulted in a cracked head.
Tom M.

[dlb]

have you ever had issues with the rad fan, or do you know for a fact that it was working up until the catastrophe occurred? normally it will kick on when the temp gets hot, like during idle, and cool down the coolant. if it was not working though you would end up with an overheating situation which is what it sounds like you had. did you happen to notice what the gauge was reading just before you turned the car off that day?

i don't think it would be in the hoses, carb, or starter because it was running fine until it was left idling. i'm leaning towards head/head gasket. not the worst situation. if your head is warped but not too badly you could just get it machined down so it was flat again (providing this hasn't been done before to the head--too much shaving it down and your compression will be too high). worst case would require grabbing a new head from a wrecker, refurbishing it, and throwing it on. if that turns out to be it, don't forget to fix your rad fan too!

[Petros]

Welcome to the list!

Sorry to hear about your problems. You did not note what the temp gauge was showing when you got back to your car while it was billowing steam. If the engine was not overheated, it might be okay and something external is making it not run. Sometimes it will blow steam out the coolant revovery tank it allowed to idle for a long time. OTOH If the cooling fan, or the fan switch was not working, it will over heat when sitting too long. I have also over heated in really cold weather because I did not have enough anti-freeze in the mix, the rad froze and prevented coolant circulation, and caused overheating. I got to replace the head gasket for that mistake.

If it was badly overheated it not only damage the gasket, but can also damage the head. I have badly over heated one of these engines, and though mine was still running, it would blow through a lot of coolant. I managed to get it home and pulled it apart. When I took the head off it was rather badly warped, all 4 cylinders were leaking (and I was not getting any coolant in the oil even than). I had the head resurfaced, but I also had to have the cam shaft journals bored to line them up. The head has so much warp that the cam shaft could not be turned by hand. I suspect this is what made the engine feel so different.

You need to run a compression test, min is about 125 psi in each cylinder. Just pulling the spark plugs and cranking might tell you something, if it sprays a mist of coolant out the spark plug holes, the head gasket it gone. IF compression is okay, check if you are getting spark and fuel. It just might be a co-incidence that something else failed when it was blowing steam out the coolant recovery tank. List member Danzo recently changed his carb, and than it would not run. It was easy to assume the problem is the carb but it turns out the coil failed right after the carb change. You should be lucky if this is the case, changing the carb or coil is a lot less trouble and cost than rebuilding your engine from a max overheat event.

do some tests and get back with us on what you find.

[yotanewb]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm still in the process of getting the car up the hill to my house, so I can't do all of the tests I need to right now. But I will very soon and get back to you.

For now, I can say that I didn't actually see the temp gauge when I ran out, but it had been getting high every once and a while when I was driving, I just kept putting water in. I think there was a coolant leak somewhere because I would occasionally see coolant like fluid coming from the car when I was parked and the mix in the radiator definitely became more water, less coolant over time. Irresponsible, I know, but I thought I could go a little bit longer. Probably the cause of most car troubles....

But I was leaning toward head gasket when I did my own research. I was just under the impression that it'd be a much more difficult fix. You guys make it seem like it's something that can be taken care of fairly easily (compared to replacing engine) so that puts me a little be at ease.

Like I said, I will do more tests and get back as soon as I know more information.

**PETROS- After meticulously reviewing your reply I noticed that you're from Arlington. I was pretty happy to see this as I live in Seattle and grew up a little north of Arlington. I actually wrestled Arlington in high school at Burlington-Edison! Small world. ha. So if there is any way we could possibly meet and you can give me an opinion or if you have any tips for finding parts in the area it'd really help. If you'd be willing to drive down and look at my car I could definitely compensate you for your travels.

Thanks again everyone!

[Petros]

Read my "repair guide" on replacing your head gasket, and you will have everything you need to know. IT is much easier to replace the head gasket on this car than most, I can tell you from experience. You also need to find the source of your other leak, if you have one. You may have simply had a leaky head gasket to start, and made it worse. It will usually run with a leaky head gasket, unless it is so bad it floods the cyl with coolant and there is no compression.

I try and avoid Seattle, but I do get down there occasionally. If I am there I will be happy to drop by and take a look at your car.

I would take all the spark plugs out, crank the engine some to spray any coolant out, and spray WD40 or similar in each of the cylinders to prevent rust from forming around the rings. Letting it sit for even a week will allow rust to start to form, and it will ruin the cyl walls for sealing.

[yotanewb]

So I've been tinkering with it. Pretty much got completely prepared to change the head gasket, but when I checked compression it was fine. The lowest was around 120, but I didn't crank it very long for that one.

Does this mean that the head gasket is fine? I'm checking other things (sparks, fuel, etc.) but the car definitely felt different when I tried to push it. And it still completely dies right when it's about to start. So it doesn't really seem like fuel or spark. When that was an issue before the car just wouldn't start. Not completely stop cranking and turn off. So I'm at a loss...

What other tests should I do? Is there anything that would kill the car just as it's about to start up? It's a huge disappointment every time it gives me a hint of starting and just DIES. I think the fact that it's getting a little bit of a start means it's getting a spark, but maybe it's not enough?

Any more suggestions would really help.

[Petros]

bad head gaskets can still compression test okay, but leak coolant into the combustion chamber as it runs. It will usually run with a bad head gasket unless it is so bad it has no compression, or sucks so much coolant it will not ignite the mixture.

did you check for spark? possible you had a weak spark (requiring occasional use of starting fluid) and the overheat put the ignition system over into the will not run. Sometimes more than one thing fails together and it is very frustrating to find out why it will not run.

[yotanewb]

Good call Petros. I pulled the cap and found out the rotor was melted and badly warped. It was getting stuck on the sides of the distributor. This explained the resistance I felt when I pushed it and when I tried to start it. Granted, I might have overreacted to the amount of resistance, but I worry when something feels different like that.

But anyways...

I replaced the cap and rotor, sparks, changed all the fluids, and got it to start. But now it idles extremely high. I tinkered with the choke and it is a little sticky, but it wasn't really a problem before. I've been going at it with some carb cleaner and it will unstick for a while, but always ends up wanting to accelerate. I have to either get out and manually close the choke or turn off the car. I'm assuming I should tinker with the autochoke? Maybe rebuild the carb?

Also, I lost track of the tubes that go to the vac advance and have been experimenting by switching them but I'm not really getting a reaction either way. In fact, the car seems to run a little better when both are disconnected and unplugged? This might be a side effect of the sticky carb, but it's still a little confusing...

And lastly, it's still overheating, regardless of the new coolant. I know it's running at high RPM's, but I still don't think it should overheat in a matter of minutes?

Are there any quick adjustments I can make on the carb to keep it from endlessly accelerating? If I could just get it on the road it'd make the whole process a lot easier. I'm getting tired of walking to O'Reilly's in the rain!

[Petros]

check your float level through the window to make sure it is not over filling. Carb might be messed up. Could also be a large vacuum leak some where. make sure the throttle return spring is in place and working properly. Spray carb cleaner around intake manifold gasket to so see if it is leaking. Overheat can warp it so it leaks there.

Vac tubes on distributor should not affect operation much, do not worry about it, just make sure the ends are capped.

It should not over heat fast if it is full of coolant, even if the gasket is leaking. Check the thermostat is good, they can go bad if pushed to high temps, or it might have been the problem in the first place. Put in a good one, not a cheap one. makes sure your lower hose is not collapsed (when they get old the loose stiffness and water pump can flatten them). A badly damaged head gasket will blow coolant out quickly and will overheat since it can not develop system pressure, so you might be in for a gasket change.

Sounds like you have a lot of issues going on, perhaps you sent a lot of problems over the top when it got hot. Not usually the problem, but having to fix more than one problem at the same time can be very frustrating because you can not find what is keeping it from running.

Sounds like you made some progress at least, now it is just a matter of finding all the problems and fixing them.

[yotanewb]

UPDATE:

So I've been working on the car for about a week now. I pretty much completely dissected it and tested everything. Turns out the head gasket was fine, but I replaced it anyway since I was already there and had bought the set. The valves were good so I kept those in. I'll probably replace exhaust valves if I have to reseal the head gasket in the future.

I found out the radiator fan had busted. It was getting power, but the middle of the propeller was stripped so the blades weren't spinning. Fixed that. Also, found the ground to the thermo switch had broke off so I fixed that.

Rebuilt/cleaned the carb using a simple kit. I haven't set it all up to try starting yet, but it should be good to go. I followed the FSM every step and made sure everything was as close to perfect as I could get it.

But I still have a few problems...

After checking the entire vac system, I found almost every component to be clogged/stuck. The EGR valve is pretty much a solid brick of carbon deposit. The EGR modulator was pretty clogged, but I was able to clean it enough to get some flow. The bottom valve (N) on the TVSV was broken, but I was able to rig up a temporary fix that seems to get pretty good airflow. Pretty much all the jets, check valves, etc. are clogged completely.

So now I'm trying to clean and fix everything I can because it looks like it'd be pretty expensive to replace all of these parts. Does anyone know if it is even possible to revive a completely locked up EGR valve? Are there any good junkyards in Washington I could take a look at or cheap places online? I really don't have a lot of money to spend right now so I'm looking for the most "economical" option that get it running.

Any help would be much appreciated. This project is turning into nightmare and I'd like to get my car on the road as soon as I can. I really need it for school and work. BUT, on the bright side, I'm really getting to know the car I've loved so much for nearly a year now. I can tell this is the beginning of a very long, intimate relationship with my Tercel and I'm looking forward to the future.

[Petros]

I would just remove the EGR valve for now (or leave it as "dummy" EGR"), it will run better without it anyway. As for the other components, use the same approach, use the FSM as a guide and you can determine which components can be either removed and plugged, or by-passed. Some items have to be bypassed, you can not just remove them.

[yotanewb]

Oh, that's good news. I thought the EGR valve was a necessary component. Glad to hear it can run without it. Hoping to at least get it started today so I can start looking for junkyards...

[dlb]

as long as you don't have emissions testing where you are you can rip out all of the emissions stuff. the only ones you would want to keep are the 2 PCV hoses (found on the top of the valve cover) and the vacuum advance hose (runs from the bottom of the distributor to the carb). i personally far prefer this because it creates a lot of space in the engine bay, allowing you better access to more areas of the engine. just make sure you plug all the old ports that the hoses used to attach to.

[yotanewb]

as long as you don't have emissions testing where you are you can rip out all of the emissions stuff

Wow. That really helps. I had no idea that stuff wasn't necessary for the car to run. I definitely won't run it that way for long, but if it gets me on the road I'll give it a try for a little while!