4AFE compatability

[CathodeRayTube]

Im thinking about trying to swap in a 4AFE engine into my 86...i have searched around and found some relevant info...but i just want to verify and double check a few things...

will the bolt patterns and engine mounts etc match up OK? i think i read that both the 3ac and 4afe have 6 bolt patterns and will match...is that correct? also, will everything else fit? read somthing about the distributor not fitting in correctly and hitting the firewall...and another thing, is the 4AFE too powerful for the tercels tranny? i read that also....are the trannys in these things really that weak?

can anybody give me any other advice about installing a 4AFE? or is there a better option? or is a 4afe definitly a no-no or what?

thanks.

[gatemaster]

The only problem I know of, which is why I won't do it, is the dizzy location requires firewall modifications. The efi version may have clearance problems with the hood and intake. The 4age is a better option but requires flywheel mods.

[Petros]

All of the hard points on the 4AFE bolt into the mounts and trans on the Tercel, the trans should handle the power fine. the issue with the trans is they get old and wear out, more power just makes them wear a bit faster if you are hard on it (synthetic gear lube should help this).

The two big issues are the distributor location, and the intake manifold. On the distributor you either have to cut a hole in the fire wall to clear the dist, or go to a distributor less ignition (my choice, but it costs more). It might be possible to get an EFI computer with the distributor-less ignition system in it from a newer 4cyl. Toyota model from a wrecking yard and adapt it to the 4afe engine. This would cost less than buying an aftermarket distributor-less ignition system.

On the induction system I would consider cutting off the intake manifold inlet flange and welding it on the other side. The 4afe never came in a RWD configuration so it puts the throttle body up against the firewall, some have cut the firewall and put an inlet duct there instead of from the front.

The flywheel will fit fine on the 4afe, and it should clear the hood as well. there was a thread in this forum of some who did a 4afe swap, and there is one for someone currently doing a 4age swap. EAch engine has different advanages and very different issues to deal with to make them work, but either can be make to fit.

Good luck.

[CathodeRayTube]

today i parked my 92 corolla wagon next to the new tercel and compared the engines and measured and eyeballed things...i dont see any similarities between the corollas 4afe and the 3a as far as the mounts go...they look completely different and dont look like they would match up, but i probably didnt look that hard or i may have missed somthing...but anyway i think iv decided to just leave the engine alone for now...unless it was a for sure drop in replacement that requires very light mods, i dont think im prepared for it. i have no engine lift or anything like that, only a small gasless wire welder, and would only want to put maybe $200 into it, so im going to put off the engine swap idea for now and just tune up and lightly mod the 3A. i still plan on doing it later after the 3A fails or if i get enough money to do it right and well. right now im just going to focus on fixing rust, rust proofing, and re painting.

[vervepipes]

the "hard points" on the block itself is where you have to look, the mounts themselves would not work. you need to take the whole mounts from your 3a to bolt onto the 4a block. I was thinking of a 4a-f but there were too many issues to deal with on a zero budget replacement, so I'm using my good 3a head on the 4a block, probably going to try to sell the -f head to re-coup costs. It also looked to me that routing the exhaust would be tricky to clear the steering shaft

[CathodeRayTube]

IDK..im still on the fence about it...how much does a distributor less setup typically cost? what make model of newer toyota might have one that i could swap in from a scrapyard? i wouldnt think the exaust would be terribly difficult to deal with...

On the induction system I would consider cutting off the intake manifold inlet flange and welding it on the other side. The 4afe never came in a RWD configuration so it puts the throttle body up against the firewall, some have cut the firewall and put an inlet duct there instead of from the front.

could another intake manifold be used? like one from a 4ac and then put the throttle body on the that so it faces frontwards?

can i get a link to the other 4afe swap thread? i searched and am unable to find it...

on engine mods in general...i STILL would rather do either a diesel or fully electric conversion...but i know both of those would involve even more work and expense so theyr beyond me at this point...the toyota "C" diesel engines are too rare, a VW engine would work but would require alot of modding and fabrication as far as mounts/bolt patterns go...and i could get an electric forklift motor very cheap, as well as make an adapter plate to bolt it to the trans...but electric car batteries and controllers are hellishly expensive... *sigh*

[Petros]

For the 4afe to work you would also have to make a custom header, if you can weld you could likely do the whole exhaust for about $200 worth of parts, less if you use salvaged exhaust components.

I think it is the Echo that used the 5EE(?) engine that has a distributorless system. Since it is integrated you would have to use the EMC to control both spark and EFI (get one from a 5 speed, not automatic trans). I would also get all the senors from that engine as well, the 4afe manifold should work fine. I have heard the Ford Escort distributorless system is easy to adapt to any car since it is separate from the EFI system, I have looked at them in the wrecking yard, but I do not know enough about them to know what is involved (sensors, components, etc.). They are plentiful and from a self service wrecking yard they should be cheap, go find a wiring and logic diagram for the newer Ford Escorts and it should give you a clue about what you need to make that work.

AFIK there are no other intake manifolds that fit the 4afe engine (not the 4ac, totally different head design), the carburetor equipped 4af manifold might work, but you are still stuck with a carb. You might get a TBI to adapt to the 4af manifold, it is a much simpler type of injections that is easy to adapt, and you do not have the intake manifold problem. The Geo Metro/Suzuki Swift TBI is popular to adapt because it is simple and reliable, you just need to make an adapter plate. But you still have the distributor location to worry about, unless you go Ford Escort or aftermarket.


That would not be a bad set-up: 4AF engine with a Metro TBI conversion, and distributorless with an Escort system. should be cheap, but you will need to do your homework to sort it all out. You still need a custom exhaust system, but everything else should swap over,engine mounts will bolt up, etc. There is some messing about with the radiator hoses but it can be made to work, (I would put the 3ac water pump/T-stat housing and hoses on the 4af block), and the throttle linkage too.


If your 3ac still runs good, you might consider putting on a 2" exhaust, a performance regrind cam shaft (from Delta cams in Tacoma WA-about $60 exchange), put on a good air filter and advance the timing 10-12 deg BTDC.
that should get you about 10hp, improve your economy and fit within your budget. To top it off install a header (made for the 4ac, but it fits) and get a few more hp. I have extensively tweaked my 3ac and the limitation of the 8-valve head makes it a questionable investment, plus I have to replace my head gasket about once a year. My power is okay, but I will be doing a 4age swap when I have the time and budget to finish it (I am accumulating parts for the swap now), so I have given up on the 3ac, it was an obsolete design even in 1984.

Good luck

[CathodeRayTube]

another thing i thought of. does anybody know what the differances are between the 1st and 2nd gen 4AFEs are?

i wanted to go with the 2nd gen one...like in the picture..will it work the same as the 1st gen? i belive the pic is of one in a geo prism...

[Petros]

The difference is emissions controls, I think the connecting rod bearings are also different size. Otherwise they are pretty similar mechanically and power curves are similar, except the later non-California engines have a few more peak hp, torque is almost the same. I would go with the Federal (49 state) first gen engine because it does not have EGR system (which I hate), has fewer vac lines and sensors, and should be more efficient. The first gen manifold is also easier to alter (unlike the one pictured above) to make it for a RWD installation rather than for a transverse install.

You can get any engine you can get cheap, and just get a first gen intake manifold from a wrecking yard to alter and install on it. The exhaust header would have similar adaptation issues to make it work in your car, and should be interchangeable between the two engines.

[CathodeRayTube]

I was at the junkyard today, i found 4 of the 2nd gen 4AFEs like in my picture...and a couple of the 1st gen ones. but what i was really looking for now was the 4AGE..wich the local junk yard didnt have...im thinking that may be the better route now because laytheing down the flywheel or whatever seems like alot less bother than hunting down a distributorless ignition (wich i have looked around on google for info on and found nothing) or cutting the firewall and dealing with the intake crap... somebody who responded to this said the 4age was a better match anyway...i think im going to read the other thread in depth about the 4age swap that is in progress at the moment...

where can 4AGEs with RWD manifolds be found? according to wikipedia only in 1986 and older corollas and mr2s..is that right? and does a 4age get better or worse gas mileage tan a 4afe?..that is really one of my big concerns..

im also worried about putting a bigger better engine on a tranny with 170k on it and having it burn out quickly...so i had wanted to have the trans rebuilt or somthing before i put more power thru it...somebody in another topic said that was a good idea to have done, wich is where i got the idea from...but thats expensive. so maybe it would be best to leave the 3ac alone until it actually dies...or the trans dies naturaly...cant decide..

[Kumppari]

where can 4AGEs with RWD manifolds be found? according to wikipedia only in 1986 and older corollas and mr2s..is that right?

Mr2`s do not have RWD manifolds. The engine (and transmission) is same as in the FWD corolla GTI and oriented the same way, just in a different end of the car.

One option for ignition control would be MegaSquirt. It can be made to work with almost any engine and parts/sensors combination, but it does require some amount of fabrication.

[CathodeRayTube]

why couldnt you use the same ECU that came with the 4afe/4age to be swapped in? also, after reading the other thread about the 4age swap, whats the case with the fuel system...do you also have to get a new fuel pump and gas tank or somthing to do an engine swap?

and im really more concerned about efficiency than performance...what are the differences in gas mileage between the 3A, 4AFE, and 4AGE in these things? wich one would get the best mileage or be the best balance between power and efficiency ?

[gatemaster]

From my research I came to the conclusion that the later 4age engines that have small port intake manifolds was the best choice. The earlier models used a mechanical butterfly system on the intake to improve low rpm throttle response. the latermodels should be more available than earlier large port versions as the high performance crowd looks for them. All eFI systems will require a high pressure fuel pump either as an add in or if it is located in the tank then a tank with fuel pump will be required. All of this information is available in this forem you will have to search> I have a large assignment due for school tomorrow so I don't have time myself or i would post links. Wikipedia has some useful info on these engines. You will gain some but not too much power and they should get better MPG from a more efficient and reliable engine design. I am waiting to see how Petros and Synthdesigns projects turn out.

[Petros]

my long term plans are to go 4age only because there are less issues involved with getting it to fit. The flywheel is the biggest one, but it is something straightforward to make work. You also have to either modify the hood, or lower the engine mounts on the 4age (the top of the engine is about 3/4" higher than the 4afe engine). But you solve the distributor, intake manifold, and radiator hose routing issues with the 4age.

The first gen 4age is the same in all the earlier cars it came in (Corolla GTS, MR2, and FX-16) except the intake manifold, you want the intake manifold from a '84-'86 (or '87?) rear wheel drive Corolla GT-S, there was also a Geo Sprint Csi that is the same car with different graphics, but the Csi is even more rare than the Corolla GT-s. I bought a whole engine from an '85 Corolla GTS off of Craig's list for $300, about the going price for a used engine. They also appear on e-bay regularly. Or you can try and find a RWD Corolla GTS that was rolled or wrecked at an auction and use it as a parts car (get the rear axle out of it too, some have LSD stock and it has rear wheel disk brakes, it will bolt into the Tercel 4wd). The RWD Corollas are now worth quite a bit since all the kids want to make them into "drift cars", but that also means they wreck they often too. All of the other parts you do not use should be easy to sell off to those keeping their own GTS corollas running. The 4afe engine is way more common, and less extensive to buy (about $100-150), and less complex too. Dealing with the distributor and intake manifold issues of the 4afe could prove to be less troublesome, even if a bit more costly. Net cost might be about the same.

I think both the 4afe and the 4age will get better economy than the 3ac, both engines are more efficient than the carbed 3ac. I have heard of some getting as high as 42mpg with the 4age Corolla rwd (if they drive really lightly on the throttle), I personnally knew someone that got 36 to 38 mpg in mixed commuting to work with a 4age corolla (with a lot of miles on the engine too). We have a Corolla all-trac wagon with a 4afe engine and it gets about 29-30 mpg on mixed driving (about the same as my '84 Tercel 4wd), but the all-trac weighs more than the Tercel. I suspect the 4afe will not get as good economy as the a 4age in the Tercel, but it could be about the same too. They are similar engines in terms of size and how they are equipped, but they have very different head and cams in them.

The power curve of the 4afe is better suited to the Tercel, it has an almost flat torque curve from about 2000 rpm up to about 5,500 rpm, excellent for off road. The 4age has quite a bit more power, but all at a much higher rpm. You are best to have that later Tercel final drive ratio of 4.1:1 if you go 4age. I will either have to buy an '85 or newer Tercel, or swap out the transaxle and rear diff in my '84 before I do the 4age swap.

You would want to use the ECU for that engine from the donor car, the 4age ECU also controls the TVIS valves, so you must have that ECU for it. You can either adapt the gas tank from the EFI car with the in-tank pump (which also means adapting the fuel gauge sender) or you can get an external EFI fuel pump. There are a number of production cars that use external EFI fuel pumps so you can get them cheap at a Pull-A-part type wrecking yard. There are also after market pumps, that should also use a fuel pressure regulator, but that would cost more than the wrecking yard pumps.

If you have a good trans, and use synthetic lube in it, it should hold up fine if you do not abuse it. I do not think I would do a "preemptive" overhaul on the trans, but rather wait on that, and only do it when it needs it.

[c0z]

I've was driving my '90 Prizm for a couple years now, and absolutely LOVE the 4AFE that's in it. So responsive and smooth, and 40mpg on the highway.... can't stand the car though. Now I've been driving my '83 T4WD for a few months....love the car, can't stand the engine. I have a passionate hate for carbs. This one has a brand new head on it, and runs great, but it slow and has other carb-like characteristics that I dislike.

The dizzy and intake problems really have easy solutions. Wiring is easy for me at least, have done EFI retrofit swaps in the past. As far as I'm concerned the exhaust is going to be the biggest pain. What exactly is the problem with the stock manifold? Does it hit the steering linkage or something? Is there anywhere out there we can get a blank 4AFE header flange? Or will I just have to make one from scratch?