A Tale Of A Tercel Tailpipe - Buyer's Remorse

[ALiveSR5]

Actually, it was a muffler, not a tailpipe.

I guess, technically, real Tercels do not have just mufflers. But, in 2012, my health had slipped to the point where I thought that I needed to find a local auto repair shop that would responsibly and conscientiously care for my Tercel. It was obvious that my Tercel would need a new muffler to pass state inspection, that year. Past experience taught me that old exhaust system parts could be a challenge to remove, if one did not have a torch.

Some years prior, the genuine Toyota mid-pipe/muffler combination that I had installed years earlier needed to be replaced. Whether it was because genuine Toyota pipes were no longer available or too expensive, the auto shop that I was using then put on a Walker mid-pipe and a separate Walker muffler. So, in 2012, it was just the muffler, with a single clamp, that needed to be replaced (so much for the Walker lifetime warranty).

Having moved to a new area, traveling to my previous auto shop seemed way too far. Because of my health concerns, I decided to give the local auto shop that my wife took her car to a try - they seemed reasonably fair - or so I thought.

I arrived at the shop with my Tercel, at the appointed time. There were windows in the wall, between the waiting area and the shop and the mechanic pulled my Tercel into the bay closest to the window-wall.

After getting my Tercel lifted, I watched the mechanic remove the muffler clamp then gently wiggle and wind the muffler off of the pipe. That took all of 15 to 20 seconds. Then the mechanic disappeared - apparently the food truck had arrived around back and it wasn't even lunchtime, yet.

I waited and waited and waited and kept wondering why it was taking so long to slide on a new muffler, clamp it, then give me back my car. I must have waited an hour for this simple process that should not have taken more than a couple of minutes.

Finally, the guy finished the job and got my car off of the lift and I thought I would just pay the bill and go home - that was until I learned that they charged me $192.88 (US) "WHAT!!!", I said (yes, I actually said that).

Before deciding to take my Tercel to this shop, I learned that the NAPA store would sell me a new Walker muffler for $49 (US) - the exact same NAPA store and the exact same muffler used by this shop. I expected the shop to make 'some' profit on this but they charged me $84.46 (US) just for the muffler, $20 (US) for the clamp, and $77.50 (US) for labor (plus sales tax). It was amazing that I did not seize up right there on the spot.

To get my car back, I had to pay the bill. Then I went to the NAPA store and had the counter guy write down the retail price of the muffler on their business card. I took that back to the shop owner/manager but he would not concede that I had been ripped-off. It turned out that they charged me the "shop" or "job" rate for removing and replacing a genuine Toyota pipe/muffler combination, not for the simple muffler replacement that they actually did.

As I said early, I had previous installed a genuine Toyota mid-pipe/muffler combination on my Tercel 4WD - and it was a bear-and-a-half. I not only had to unbolt the rear shocks but had to use a mountain of blocks under the rear bumper to jack the car high enough for the rear axle to drop down enough to wrestle the pipe over the axle. Whew! What a project! Ain't working on the ground fun.

Had the shop mechanic actually installed a genuine Toyota pipe/muffler, I may have considered the cost reasonable. But, wowzer, I was feeling rather burned by these guys. Even as poor as my health was, at that time, I should have just done the muffler replacement myself and been done in less than half an hour.

After some exchanges, the shop owner did eventually give me a full refund but, after this incident, my wife never took her car back to them, either.

One lesson for me: do repairs on my Tercel myself, unless I absolutely, positively am unable to do so.

[Petros]

many repair shops look for ways to inflate their fees, some even charge a "supplies fee" for rags, towels, hand soap and other incidentals. Usually they charge based on a flat rate manual fix it price. one local repair chain wants 2.5 hours per axle at shop rate, to replace the CV axles (about $95/hour). I can do that job for 45 min per side in my gravel driveway with a jack, hand tools and a pry bar. they have the advantage of lift, pneumatic tools and specialty pullers and other costly tools, it should take them half that much time. Plus they would change me $150 for remanufactured CV axles when I can buy new ones from Rockauto for about $60 each. so for less time than it takes to drive my car there I can do the job for both axles for $120 in about an hour and a half, while they would want $800 for it.

one time when my daughter was in collage she drove a CRX that I rebuilt for her, before she left for school I put all new brakes and belts and fluids, etc. on, and new cv axles. after three months in school the brakes went soft, the only thing I had not replaced was the master cyclinder (they listed a new one on the autozone website for $58), it was a simple job to replace the master, I could do it in about a half an hour, including bleeding it out. I told her to take it to a repair shop, I figured if they change an hour shop rate, and $100 for the replacement master cylinder, it would be worth it. they not only gave her and estimate for $600, but also gave her a list of all the other parts they said needed be replaced: the brand new wheel brakes, belts and cv axles, etc they said were bad (liars). $1400 estimate (about eight times the cost I had into the car), I could have flown to Austin, fixed her car, went out to dinner with her, and flew home and saved over $1000. I told her to just ask them to replace the master cylinder, and they told her they could not do that because they determined all these other parts were unsafe and she has to replace all of the rest.

I had a friend I had met on this forum, who lived about 2 hours away, that my daughter had met the last time I was there to visit, he was unemployed and I knew he could do a decent job with the brakes. I told him I would pay him $100 to drive to Austin and replace the master cylinder for my daughter (that I had ordered on line and was ready to pick up at the Autozone across the street from where she lived). it was such a simple job he just charged us $50, and it was all fixed for less than $100. I asked him to just double check the belts and wheel brakes, to make sure I did not mess something up (doubtful but I asked him to check it for me). he called me and said they all look like new.

my daughter was stunned at the level of dishonesty of this large chain that had a good reputation. this is fairly normal, especially in big cities. she was a young collage student from out of state, they figured she had no idea what her car needed. but certainly I did, I rebuilt the whole car from the ground up (I bought it for $75 not running), and knew ever new part, every bolt and wire on the whole car, I got in top shape for she was driving it halfway across the country to go to collage. Crooks are not just dishonest, they are also stupid to think everyone else is stupid. My daughter wanted to report them to the local authorities, the problem was we were not victimized because I know their deception and we did not go for it (I had worked for several repair shops and used car dealers, as well as been working on cars since about 1974, before I even had a drivers license, and know their business practices), so we were not out any money. An honest repair shop is good to find, but very rare in large cities where they will never run out of victims. where I live now in a small town, word of a bad mechanic gets around, and they have to close and move on. most of the local ones everyone knows, and are good shop owners who are part of the community. The few times I was tempted to just have a repair shop fix a problem I did not want to do, by the time I was done going back and forth to get them to correct their mistakes (which they usually will do), I might as well have done it and saved the cost, because there was no time savings.

Recently my wife was having trouble with the battery running down on her Lexus SUV. I check the battery and alternator, all good, and figured there was some other intermittant draw on the battery. My wife took it to a recommended local mechanic to look at it, he also tested the alternator and battery, and found them working too. but recommended to replace the alternator for $800. I called to asked him why (I could buy the same altnerantor new, same as the factory one, for $180). he said he only uses dealer prats (rip off one, when you can buy the exact same part number on the parts market), and that he said it must be the alternternator. I said I tested it and was good, did he test it? he said he did, and it tested good. so why replace it? (for $800?), he said that was likely the problem, even thought it tested good. I told my wife to forget it, she was worried she would get stuck.

a few weeks later she asked me to check the rear hatch latch because it was not always latching properly. it had all the screws come loose and fall into the spare tire well, the plastic trim was holding it in place. I had to pull back the trim and get behind the body work to reinstall the screws (with locktite on the nuts behind it). it not only fixed the latch, but explained the mystery of why the battery would run down sometimes. the cargo light would stay on when the rear hatch would not latch closed all the way. the fix cost nothing. this guy who pretends to run a reputable repair shop would have not fixed the problem at all, and would have charged us $800 to replace good parts.

that is why I always repeat to everyone on this forum, who want to rush to a fix when they do not even know the cause: ALWAYS diagnose the problem, BEFORE you try to fix it. or you will replace good parts and only waste time and money, frustrate yourself and not fix the problem.

[ALiveSR5]

that is why I always repeat to everyone on this forum, who want to rush to a fix when they do not even know the cause: ALWAYS diagnose the problem, BEFORE you try to fix it. or you will replace good parts and only waste time and money, frustrate yourself and not fix the problem.

That is certainly good advice, especially when members have access to so many knowledgeable people and excellent information, here - a resource I wish I had known about many years ago.

I know that many shops do try to take advantage of people who are ignorant or naive about their vehicles, in order to profit from it.

Once I needed to have a CV axle replaced on my Tercel and, again, my health would not allow me to do the project myself. I took my Tercel to the local shop that I and my family had been using for many years to get it done - I think I even provided the axle that I had previously salvaged from another Tercel.

When I mentioned to the shop owner that I also provided the Tercel Repair Manual, he just grinned and shrugged, like I insulted him.

After it was done and I went to pay the bill, the shop owner told me it took an hour for the mechanic to break the ball joint loose from the steering knuckle - AHHHGGGG!

All he had to do was remove the two bolts from under the knuckle and the lower arm would have dropped out of the way. Like you said, I could have done the whole project myself, if I was able, in less than an hour. With a lift and power tools - likely 20 minutes.

Arrogance and incompetence, apparently, also plague the industry. As my age and health-related issues reduce my ability to function, I get more concerned about who to trust my car to.

I hope that your wife and daughter appreciate your knowledge and skill in making sure their vehicles are ready and safe to drive.

[splatterdog]

Is it still buyers remorse if you got a full refund?

The only fault I can see is if they didn't give you an idea of the cost beforehand.

[ALiveSR5]

Is it still buyers remorse if you got a full refund?

The only fault I can see is if they didn't give you an idea of the cost beforehand.

I was trying to be "nice." Because of my wife's experiences with that shop, I thought they were trust worthy.

Getting a refund was actually quite a battle. I really only asked for a partial refund, because I believed they should make a fair and reasonable profit. In the end, though, the owner wanted to prove his integrity and just gave me a full refund.

It was not a pleasant experience all around and maybe "remorse" is not the proper word, perhaps, regret, perhaps a better word but this is a PG-Rated forum, right?

[splatterdog]

The $20 clamp was out of line, otherwise my napa currently shows a list of only 52 cents less than what you paid. Bottom line is they might have charged what it took to make a profit. If it was a big shop and/or in a big city, so is the overhead. If it's a chain they might also lose 16 cents on every dollar to franchise fees.

Shouldn't take this too hard, exhaust work can be very simple yet incredibly difficult without a hoist, torch, welder, sawzall, and an expensive pipe bender(plus a guy who knows how to use it). Many able bodied people have failed at it including my teenage self. I had broke down and spent "big bucks" at Midas long ago. Never punched another hole in my gas tank with a muffler that fell off after that, was well worth it.

[SirFoxx]

Although it may be moot, I do want to chime on the whole "the shop seems good until they give you the bill" and "diagnose before fixing". A roommate of mine was in need of a car badly after he was in an accident with his, and the truck we got him went to the scrap yard after the engine seized. We found him a 1991 olds delta 88 royale brougham which was mechanically in decent shape, but structurally, eh.

The first main problem we had with the car was it would high idle when started, then stumble all over the place after a few minutes, then be fine. I did a bunch of searching, attempting to diagnose what the issue was. The symptoms it was having pointed at literally all the sensors(cam, crank, iac), ecu, and the ICM. Without proper tools, I wasn't really able to diagnose it so I started firing the parts cannon at it. The issue was, after I replaced one thing, the car would be fine for awhile, then leave my roommate stranded somewhere after it stalls and refuses to restart. I tried back probing the wires going to the ICM (since it handled the sensor inputs for ignition) and the according to the one guide I found, everything seemed to be okay. I even upgraded the ICM to a series II module (car had the "pre-series 1 3800" v6, but the newer ICM's from the 3800 series II are compatible), but it made no difference.

After admitting defeat, I decided to call around to see who had an OBDI scan tool. I thought about buying one, but they are rather expensive, and is worthless if the car gets wrecked. Dropped the car off, waited a day or so, then got a call back. They said "every single sensor was reading high". I asked him which sensors were reading high, and he kept repeating that before finally saying "this car has hundreds of sensors, i cant tell you them all". ....uh, what? a 1991 gm car prolly has a max of 20 sensors. I did some more calling and found another shop with a scan tool. Waited another day and got an email and a phone call. They said " its odd...all the sensors are reading abnormally high. The coolant temp as an example was reading several hundred degrees." So, I sat there and started thinking...If the ecu is outputting garbage, maybe its the ecu? Theres no way it can be the ecu cause I already replaced it 3 times with junkyard specials.

We went to the junkyard and found a base model delta 88. It was rather odd seeing a luxury car with crank windows.... Anyways, I shoved my head under the dash, pulled the ecu, and saw that it was a reman ecu. I was reluctant to buy a reman at the time as it was like $200+. Took it home, plugged it in, and the car ran beautifully. Something that also tipped me off that it may have been the ecu was a "feature" that the ecu had. GM had figured out a "fast crank" where the engine didn't need to spin 2 full revolutions before starting. I saw a video, and literally as soon as the starter engaged, the engine was running. Our engine had to spin like 5 or 6 full times before it would fire.

The email I mentioned was an "interactive" complementary inspection that they did of the car. Pretty neat as they took pictures of the issues that need to be addressed. One of the huge issues that I didnt know about were the subframe mounts. The subframe on these GM cars have 6 huge rubber mounts that hold the cradle to the body. If the subframe collapses, it disconnects the steering shaft along with prolly destroying the oil pan. According to the shop and the pictures, 4 of the 6 bushings were destroyed (along with motor and trans mounts). I asked them to quote the job and it was upwards of $3000 usd! For a car that was $700 and is not in good shape, that'd be a hard no. On the quote, they also listed the part numbers of each mount, and every single one they were QUADRUPLING the price! I understand markup, but quadruple? Nuh uh....To get all the mounts on our own along with their quoted labor would have been around $1100. To do the subframe mounts you really need a lift, hence why i opted not to do it. Stupid thing is, I asked if I could just buy the parts on my own since there was really only one company making the mounts, and they said they would not use my parts even though they'd be the same exact ones they would have bought!!! UGH

I came away learning a lot from that car, and learning what shops not to use. I still use the shop that gives the interactive inspections as they do a great job, but I refuse to have them do work to any of my cars.

Crown jewel on all this? Shortly after the roommate moved out, someone stole the car...I really hope that the subframe collapsed on it while they were driving it.

[Petros]

not just my wife and daughter, but all the women I know, those that work for me, family friends, including a single mother, no matter where they are they call me with questions about their cars. some are quite funny calls too. some times I can walk them through what to do on the phone. o e time I told one to come by my work, her old camry kept stalling, several shops wanted hundreds to fix it. when she arrived I came out of my office, lifted the hood and fixed it in about 30 seconds. from her description sounded like a vacuum leak over the phone. when she arrived as soon as the hood was open I could hear the hiss of a leak. followed the sound by ear to find a big fat vac hose hanging lose, I plugged it back in. she did not even have to get out of the car. she could not believe it. she thought the repair shops should have known that, they all wanted to do was put it on a diagnostic machine to run tests on it for $100, without even looking at it.